out_there | Night, all!

Your mention of the Turning series is making me really, really want to read it again, especially as I haven't read the last one or two in the series.

But I need to write too..... I need more time in the day!

Dude, the last two are good. I mean, in a heartbreaking way, sure, but good.

Of course, the problem is that you start reading a series like that, and then it impacts upon your writing. ie. I find myself subconsciously writing turningverse Sam and Josh instead of the onscreen characters/characters in my head.

Which means I want to rewatch a few episodes before continuing. What a pity. *g*

I need more time in the day!

Yeah, a few 36 hours days would suit me well. *g*

Especially since I've got another idea for a WW fic...

Okay, I stumbled over here to check out the people who recently friended me (I've had only sporadic internet access while I've been travelling), and now I'm grinning like an idiot. All this was just what I needed to read today, after all the work-related crap I've been dealing with. Thank you so much.

-J

Not a problem. I keep meaning to email you feedback and just not getting any further than "Man, I love this series" and "I can't believe you made Amy almost likeable".

I have Amy issues, and seriously dislike her, but you made me at least understand Josh's attraction to her. that's pretty hard to do.

As for the series, I love the way that it blends so seamlessly into canon (except for the Lisa thing, but to have a fic that fits in to all three seasons with only ne minor glitch, is pretty incredible). You show great attention to detail and a very thoroughly constructed back-story to the series. There is also a highly satisfying political follow-through from the fics. We see how the relationship affects them personally and professionally, which gives them a real feel of authenticy.

Then, of course, there's the characterisations of Josh and Sam. These are wonderful, three dimensional representations of the boys.There is a great feeling of depth to them, and it's wonderful to read a series where you can be so convinced that this is who you see onscreen, these actually are the characters that you love so dearly. That's very difficult to do. Most fics give you an interesting view of the characters, but there's very few fics that are so convincing.

Basically, it's just a wonderful series. *g* And everytime I read it, I'm incredibly impressed and I enjoy it utterly.

Thank you so much. I'm especially glad that it convinced you that these were the people you see onscreen, since that's exactly what I'm trying to do. The Lisa thing almost killed me, I'm telling you. I'm still annoyed. At least they could have done something with her if they were going to wreck things for me like that, but noooo. ;-)

But ... poor maligned Amy! Why do people hate her so? She's not a sweet, pleasant flower, but neither is anybody else on that show. I love her. I don't think she and Josh would work long-term, but I think she was just what he needed in the short run. And I love them as exes! It works so much better than when they tried the same things with Mandy.

-J

Hmmm... Well, keep in mind that I've yet to watch most of S4 (I've just caught an episode or two, and the rest are waiting on tape for me), so my view of her is S3 based.

It's the same as Mandy, I think. They both have quite a few irritating personality quirks. Generally, they have the same quirks that bug me about Josh, but Josh does get redeemed by some of his "coming in to save the person in distress" moments. I don't tend to see these in Amy and Mandy.

Plus, there was the phone thing. The water balloon thing struck me as pretty immature and irritating, but the phone thing was beyond belief. Seriously, what adult behaves that way?

I think the other thing is that Josh tends to become even more immature around them. It's not their fault, per se, but it doesn't help them in the popularity stakes.

See, to me the phone thing just showed me how far she'd go to win ... and how much Josh just *accepted* that about her, because he's *exactly* the same way. She pushes his cell phone in the stew, he manipulates a situation to get her fired. And what pisses each of them off about that stuff? That the other person *won*. Not the act in and of itself, but the winning. Their relationship is simply governed by different rules than normal people's, so it makes absolutely no sense for us to say that either of those actions was *bad*.

I don't know, I just find it utterly fascinating. And it fit in so well in the Turningverse, because after Sam and his pushing and all the guilt, Josh needed somebody who was going to *value* the darker and more questionable sides to him that Sam was all disapproving about. I've got other long-term fic interests, but I definitely wish more people were writing it.

I mean, I don't think I'd want to be friends with her, or anything, but I doubt I would want that with Josh, either. Even though I love him to pieces and have spent waaaaay too many hours of my life inside his sad little brain. :-)

-J

See, to me the phone thing just showed me how far she'd go to win ... and how much Josh just *accepted* that about her, because he's *exactly* the same way. She pushes his cell phone in the stew, he manipulates a situation to get her fired. And what pisses each of them off about that stuff? That the other person *won*. Not the act in and of itself, but the winning. Their relationship is simply governed by different rules than normal people's, so it makes absolutely no sense for us to say that either of those actions was *bad*.

See, this is the angle of the relationship that I'd never even considered until I read your fic. I just hadn't thought about it from that perspective.

*sighs* Okay, part of the problem is that I'm a Sam gal at heart. I adore the guy, and generally I agree with his principles and ideas. On the other hand, Josh has been far more of an... acquired taste. I warmed to him quickly, but it took me a while to fall for him the same way that I was quickly enamoured of Sam.

There are things about Josh that I am wary of, that I don't outright support. Things like the immaturity in Josh, his ability to try to win for the sake of winning, his ability to rationalise his actions and his almost belief that the ends justify the means. I think that Josh honestly needs someone to pull him back from the moral edge that he straddles.

He's a brilliant guy, used to getting his own way, and I think that he gets sidetracked by the challenge of being *able* to do something, instead of thinking *if* he should do it. I just... He doesn't have the clear moral guidelines that Sam does (and Sam's can be too rigidly structured, at times, but they're there), which is why I've always thought that Josh and Sam work well as friends, and more than friends. The idealism of one and the pragmaticism of the other mesh well, and means that they both have someone to point out when they need to compromise and rethink their actions.

I think because Mandy and Amy are so similar... I don't know. I just have this mental image of Josh in ten years time, far more jaded and far more used to using dirty politics as an easy solution.

It's my own moral code that doesn't want to imagine Josh like this, because I'm pretty sure he'd be absolutely brilliant in that type of role. He could do it, without a problem, but I don't like the idea. I don't like the way that he acts around Amy, and the entire relationship always sent warning bells going in my mind.

*sighs* I don't know. I'm also kinda close to just giving up on Josh and focusing on Will. Josh was quite a jerk in S3, but watching S1 and S2 made me very fond of him again. Hence, I'm a little sceptical about watching S4...

But, Buffy and Angel will be finished soon, so I'll probably get into it then. *g*

Okay, part of the problem is that I'm a Sam gal at heart. I adore the guy, and generally I agree with his principles and ideas. On the other hand, Josh has been far more of an... acquired taste.

Oh, me too. I mean, I could have written all of that. But I'm also absolutely fascinated by flawed characters. That's what I want to do in my writing, too -- present these people as having huge, glaring flaws, but make readers love them anyway. (By the way, have you seen this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/therealjae/269998.html)? I'd be interested in seeing your version of that meme. :-)

-J

Night, all!

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