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out_thereSince Jae asked... I'm still at work, but these 25 will do for now.
My Sam
1. My Sam has never thought of himself as gorgeous. He’s knows he’s not bad looking, but he doesn’t quite believe the compliments that he gets.
2. It’s not because he thinks that people lie, he just thinks that they tend to over-exaggerate.
3. My Sam likes steak medium rare, enjoys salads, and still tries to eat everything on his plate. It’s a habit from childhood that he’s never bothered to break.
4. My Sam likes the idea of a relationship more than the reality. He’s always felt that the reality is somewhat of a disappointment.
5. He felt this way about marrying Lisa, and kept waiting to feel more excited and enthralled. He never felt a fifth of the excitement for her that he did for the Bartlet campaign.
6. He feels guilty that she was never the centre of his life. He hopes that he was never the centre of her’s.
7. He thinks that it’s probably something wrong with him. At the moment, he barely has time to date, so he doesn’t worry about it too much. In his darker moments, he wonders if he’s like his father and if his father felt the same about his family.
8. My Sam was more hurt by the fact that his father had lied to them for 28 years, than for the fact that he’d cheated on his mother.
9. He thinks that if he was a better son, he’d be more concerned about how the cheating hurt his mother than how the lying hurt him.
10. Depending on the moment in time, he thinks that Josh is either a brilliant man, a selfish Grade-A jerk, a soul in need of comfort, or the kindest, most protective friend anyone could ask for. Occasionally, Josh is all four at the same time.
11. My Sam knows that his own writing is good, but also knows that Toby’s writing is better. He knows that he’ll never write like Toby, and wouldn’t try to imitate his style.
12. My Sam is more than slightly intimidated by Leo. This has just as much to do with the fact that Leo’s his boss, as the fact that he’s dated his daughter and flirted with his wife.
13. My Sam still occasionally wonders why they brought him into the campaign when he had so little political experience.
14. My Sam wishes that the others wouldn’t treat him as if he still had so little political experience.
15. My Sam wishes he could do the right thing all the time. He knows he can’t.
Sometimes it’s enough just to be able to hear everyone agree what the right thing is, even when they can’t do it. He wishes that they could agree on it more often.
16. My Sam likes playing computer card games. He’s had stages of playing FreeCell and Spider Solitaire, but he always comes back to playing Solitaire in the end. He likes playing it 3-card Vegas style, because otherwise it’s too easy and feels like cheating. He plays until he either owes $300 or has won $300. This self-imposed limit can last for hours.
17. My Sam wishes that he’d been the one to spot Josh’s PTSD, even though he thinks that Donna handled the situation better than he would have. He comforts himself with the fact that both he and Josh are very busy, important people, and they can’t be expected to notice everything about the other.
18. This isn’t any comfort when he thinks about the fact that Josh was the first person he told about his father’s infidelity. He tries not to think about why it happened that way. He doesn’t think it’s all caused by Josh’s better powers of observation.
19. My Sam regrets some of his actions, and can’t help thinking the man he would have been if he’d acted differently. The only thing he’s never reconsidered is joining the Bartlet campaign.
20. Occasionally he wonders about his decision to accept his position in the White House.
21. My Sam thinks that the world would be a better place if paid more attention to manners and were a little more considerate to each other.
22. My Sam likes getting his shoes shined. It makes him feel like a little kid, but the extra shine always makes him smile.
23. My Sam likes dark suits and pale shirts. He thinks it’s a smart look.
24. My Sam was amused by the CIA codename “Princeton”. He’s also been codenamed “GQ”, “Muse”, “Notepad” and “Sailboat”. He thinks that whoever comes up with the codenames must have a good sense of humour.
25. The first dozen times that he flew on Air Force One, he always took a window seat and sat watching the clouds go by. He hasn’t spent an entire flight looking out the window in over two years now.
My Sam
1. My Sam has never thought of himself as gorgeous. He’s knows he’s not bad looking, but he doesn’t quite believe the compliments that he gets.
2. It’s not because he thinks that people lie, he just thinks that they tend to over-exaggerate.
3. My Sam likes steak medium rare, enjoys salads, and still tries to eat everything on his plate. It’s a habit from childhood that he’s never bothered to break.
4. My Sam likes the idea of a relationship more than the reality. He’s always felt that the reality is somewhat of a disappointment.
5. He felt this way about marrying Lisa, and kept waiting to feel more excited and enthralled. He never felt a fifth of the excitement for her that he did for the Bartlet campaign.
6. He feels guilty that she was never the centre of his life. He hopes that he was never the centre of her’s.
7. He thinks that it’s probably something wrong with him. At the moment, he barely has time to date, so he doesn’t worry about it too much. In his darker moments, he wonders if he’s like his father and if his father felt the same about his family.
8. My Sam was more hurt by the fact that his father had lied to them for 28 years, than for the fact that he’d cheated on his mother.
9. He thinks that if he was a better son, he’d be more concerned about how the cheating hurt his mother than how the lying hurt him.
10. Depending on the moment in time, he thinks that Josh is either a brilliant man, a selfish Grade-A jerk, a soul in need of comfort, or the kindest, most protective friend anyone could ask for. Occasionally, Josh is all four at the same time.
11. My Sam knows that his own writing is good, but also knows that Toby’s writing is better. He knows that he’ll never write like Toby, and wouldn’t try to imitate his style.
12. My Sam is more than slightly intimidated by Leo. This has just as much to do with the fact that Leo’s his boss, as the fact that he’s dated his daughter and flirted with his wife.
13. My Sam still occasionally wonders why they brought him into the campaign when he had so little political experience.
14. My Sam wishes that the others wouldn’t treat him as if he still had so little political experience.
15. My Sam wishes he could do the right thing all the time. He knows he can’t.
Sometimes it’s enough just to be able to hear everyone agree what the right thing is, even when they can’t do it. He wishes that they could agree on it more often.
16. My Sam likes playing computer card games. He’s had stages of playing FreeCell and Spider Solitaire, but he always comes back to playing Solitaire in the end. He likes playing it 3-card Vegas style, because otherwise it’s too easy and feels like cheating. He plays until he either owes $300 or has won $300. This self-imposed limit can last for hours.
17. My Sam wishes that he’d been the one to spot Josh’s PTSD, even though he thinks that Donna handled the situation better than he would have. He comforts himself with the fact that both he and Josh are very busy, important people, and they can’t be expected to notice everything about the other.
18. This isn’t any comfort when he thinks about the fact that Josh was the first person he told about his father’s infidelity. He tries not to think about why it happened that way. He doesn’t think it’s all caused by Josh’s better powers of observation.
19. My Sam regrets some of his actions, and can’t help thinking the man he would have been if he’d acted differently. The only thing he’s never reconsidered is joining the Bartlet campaign.
20. Occasionally he wonders about his decision to accept his position in the White House.
21. My Sam thinks that the world would be a better place if paid more attention to manners and were a little more considerate to each other.
22. My Sam likes getting his shoes shined. It makes him feel like a little kid, but the extra shine always makes him smile.
23. My Sam likes dark suits and pale shirts. He thinks it’s a smart look.
24. My Sam was amused by the CIA codename “Princeton”. He’s also been codenamed “GQ”, “Muse”, “Notepad” and “Sailboat”. He thinks that whoever comes up with the codenames must have a good sense of humour.
25. The first dozen times that he flew on Air Force One, he always took a window seat and sat watching the clouds go by. He hasn’t spent an entire flight looking out the window in over two years now.
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Date: 2003-07-25 05:00 am (UTC)Re #1: This is different from my Sam, incidentally. My Sam knows he's gorgeous (or "conventionally attractive," as he'd put it), but thinks that it doesn't really matter. His attitude is sort of like: "Sure, I'm pretty. So?" I tried to play with that in "Weather."
Re #4, #8, #15,: This is so great, and so true.
Re #3, #22, #24, 25: This is just one of those little things that I would have never thought of myself, but which fits perfectly. (And mainly why I wanted you to do it. :-)
-J
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Date: 2003-07-25 08:26 pm (UTC)*nods* See, that works well with Sam too. You can see him as the type of guy who believes in ideals, and doesn't buy into the dodgy societal norms, like how attractive you are has anything to do with your worth as a human being.
But my Sam isn't quite that... evolved? That's why he slipped up so much when he met Ainsley. He did buy into the whole "blonde Republican sex kitten" image and underestimated her. I mean, he would have realised afterwards that he did, and he would have regretted it, but he still did it.
My Sam isn't that far from the social values. There are a lot of things that he simply accepts as values, much as he has accepted his idea of good vs bad, and his whole moral code. He doesn't actually reconsider the things that he's been told are true, he believes them; belief and close-scrutiny don't mix well.
He's a guy who *knows* what right and wrong are. He's also a guy who sees himself as very frequently failing to reach these standards, as irreversably flawed. He knows that he's not such a bad guy, but he doesn't see himself as the "paragon of virtue" that other people occasionally seem to refer to him as. Likewise, he doesn't see himself as so very handsome, either. He just thinks that other people don't see him as clearly as he sees himself.
*shruggs* I guess it's also that your Sam's a bit more of an absolutist than mine. There's absolutely no offence meant, I really do adore your Sam (and your Josh is sometimes liked more than canon-Josh *g*), but he's a guy who not only believes in definite right and wrong, but also lives them and expects others to.
My Sam believes in the ideals, but does think of them as ideals. He personally knows that he rarely reaches them, regardless of how much he tries. He knows it's not practically possible, but wishes it was. Hence, he also tends to make excuses for others, because he doesn't honestly think that most people can reach the ideal. (Bartlet was the exception. Bartlet was the one guy who made Sam think that maybe it was possible to reach the ideal, which is why Bartlet's MS was so shattering.)
He also doesn't really hold it against people in general, that they aren't these great people. He holds it against himself because he knows that he's a very smart, capable guy (he knows that he's better than most people, but tries not to be an intellectual snob about it) so he thinks that if he tried a bit harder, he could almost reach that level.
Okay, possibly I should stop rambling now... *g*
Re #3, #22, #24, 25: This is just one of those little things that I would have never thought of myself, but which fits perfectly. (And mainly why I wanted you to do it. :-)
Yeah, it's interesting the details that other writers/fans think of. The most intriguing ones are the things that make you think about how you see the character, if you agree that x would do y, and if not, why not. It's a great mental exercise, and a wonderful way of helping you to flesh the character out beyond canon.
I'm thinking that maybe I should try it for a WW fic I'm kinda stuck on. Try making a brief list about each character to get a firmer grip of them in my mind.
As for #3, that's going to show up in a fanfic sometime, I'm sure. I have this mental scene of Sam cooking steak for both of them, and cutting off a small piece from the frying pan, and eating it, much to Josh's disgust. It's an odd little scene, but it just hasn't quite left my mind, so it'll turn up sooner or later in a fic. I just know it. *g*
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Date: 2003-07-26 07:37 am (UTC)Being, fortunately and unfortunately, a mental stickler for canon, where it doesn't work for me is in the way J/S fiction by and large doesn't (and I used to seriously want to love this pairing), and that's where you've got supposition about what and how much Sam may think of Josh, and vice versa. In #10, I find the first two examples to be canonical truisms because we have been told and shown on screen that Sam thinks Josh is brilliant, but have also seen Sam react more than once that he thinks Josh is a jerk.
But I realize this is list of how you see "your" Sam and Josh, so everything doesn't have to be canonical and can be a mixture of fanon, which is where I believe almost everything S/J has to fall because there's almost no canon to support most of it. There are no on screen hints that Sam or Josh bother to give the other even a passing thought when they're not in the same room together, or even when they are, unfortunately. This is especially true of seasons 3/4 when it's all over for the friendship and it's like the two men never had the history that was portrayed in ITSOTG. They didn't even have any real history before ITSOTG, but there was moderately more playful affection and connection between them, especially coming from Josh/BW, in season one. Unfortunately, by Noel in season two, what we were told about them in ITSOTG was already waning, and it never really re-appeared on the same level or even close to the level it did in that one episode - more's the pity. :(
Once season three gets here, the MIA friendship isn't helped by the fact that they interact very rarely, and never for more than a minute or two when they do.
Sam's closest relationship, the only one that really grew on screen and evolved throughout the years (before season four when Sorkin stopped writing everything for Sam) was the friendship/mentorship he had with Toby. It's significant that when Sorkin was forced to bring Rob back to attempt a finish to his story (bad as it was), the only cast member/character Sam had anything remotely resembling a goodbye with was Toby, and no one else.
So VERY long story short, what doesn't work for me, personally, is the way most fans want to think that Josh and Sam are really close or put a lot of stock in a friendship that is nonexistent more often than not throughout the years.
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Date: 2003-07-26 06:49 pm (UTC)If Sam was aware of his looks at all, he'd know that they're always looking. ;)
Exactly. *g* I completely agree about Sam's lack of confidence. Sam doesn't realise he's such a good guy. Interestingly enough, I think that's why he tries so hard to be a good guy.
In #10, I find the first two examples to be canonical truisms because we have been told and shown on screen that Sam thinks Josh is brilliant, but have also seen Sam react more than once that he thinks Josh is a jerk.
Hmmm... Well, I think that Sam was able to recognise that Josh was in pain, that something was very wrong, in Noel, which is where the need for comfort comes in. Secondly, I think that Josh's reaction to Laurie was pretty supportive for a guy who is highly aware of political ramifications. I also think that Josh's actions regrading Donna, Cliff and Donna's diary were very protective. I don't think that Josh is always a protective friend to Sam, but I think that Sam can recognise when he's protecting others.
This is especially true of seasons 3/4 when it's all over for the friendship and it's like the two men never had the history that was portrayed in ITSOTG.
It's intriguing that straight after the show becomes pretty slashy, the next season shows the friendship as almost non-existant.
Okay, part of my views are skewed by the fact that i'm mentally living in S2. I've seen S3 about a year ago (haven't seen S4 yet - I keep putting it off because once I see Sam go it'll be kinda final!), but I've just recently seen all of S1 and S2. Hence, I still living back when they were friends...
Unfortunately, by Noel in season two, what we were told about them in ITSOTG was already waning, and it never really re-appeared on the same level or even close to the level it did in that one episode - more's the pity. :(
Very true, but I still consider SGTESGTJ to be slashy, based on the fact that it's Josh who knew about Sam's father and who told Leo, it's Josh who tries to cheer him up with mindless trivia and complements Sam on his new shirt, and it's Josh who says that they're going to get Sam drunk and put him to bed. Okay, can we tell that's one of my favourite episodes? *g*
I guess it's a case of the canonical proof about Sam and Josh's past relationship is sketchy at best. You can see them as two guys who get along well, respect each other as brilliant men, but don't actually have a great friendship to speak of. Occasionally see each, and it's Bartlet himself that draws them together for the campaign, and the onscreen friendship is just the effect of spending 5-7 days a week working long hours side by side. (This also explains the Toby/Sam friendship evolving most, simply because they are forced to spend so much time together.)
Personally, I see them as very close friends (possibly exes) before the ITSOTG flashbacks, based mainly on the concern that they show for the other over what they're both doing now. I think it was just as much each other that drew them to the campaign as Bartlet himself. I also think that they had a strong friendship until S2, where the traumatic events (Josh's PTSD, Sam's father, Bartlet's MS) combined with the everyday stress of their jobs eventually broke down the friendship. I think if they had gone to each other for support, instead of trying to handle things by themselves, that the friendship would have stayed strong, and that a relationship between the two of them would have been possible.
I guess it also depends on how you see fanfic. I'm not such a stickler for canon. As long as the story is about the characters I see onscreen, I'm perfectly happy to sit back and let you tell me a tale of "what if". I don't think that a Sam/Josh relationship has ever been shown onscreen, nor will it, because it's not actually canon. (If it was, I'd be watching QaF, not WW. *g*) But that's not going to stop me enjoying imagining what Sam and Josh would be like if they were together.
Anyway, thanks for your reply. It made me think, and I appreciate that. *g*
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Date: 2003-07-27 06:26 am (UTC)S3/4 is really where I'm thinking of Sam often reacting as if thinks Josh is a grade-A jerk, when they do interact. Though I remember clearly a case of Sam thinking Josh was being a real jerk to Laurie in In Excelsis Deo, before Josh apologized to her. ;)
I also think that they had a strong friendship until S2, where the traumatic events (Josh's PTSD, Sam's father, Bartlet's MS) combined with the everyday stress of their jobs eventually broke down the friendship. I think if they had gone to each other for support, instead of trying to handle things by themselves, that the friendship would have stayed strong, and that a relationship between the two of them would have been possible.
That's about as logical an explanation as I think one can surmise given what we little we see on screen, and the lot of what we don't. This is the way I justify it too - as a simple case of two men who are very different personalities, have different political outlooks, who are busy and stressed and naturally grew apart to where they were only co-workers, and the friendship went by the wayside. And, being guys, neither was broken up about it. It was just one of those things. By comparison, Toby and Sam grew closer and closer together because of their working relationship, and a friendship was formed on top of that working relationship. So, even though the exit was completely botched and wasted, if Sam was only to have a goodbye scene with one character, it should have been Toby, and not Josh or anyone else, given the canon reality by that point.
I also don't expect to see slash on a mainstream show between canonically heterosexual characters (though some shows push the line, which is always a bonus!). Like you said, when I want to see homoerotica on screen, I watch QaF, Six Feet Under, the Bravo channel, etc. ;D But, my fan fiction viewpoint is, canon either supports the "what-iff'ing" or it doesn't. And, for me, canon stopped supporting the J/S "what-iff'ing" not too long after ITSOTG, with SGTE,SGTJ being one of those late season anomalies (which is my personal favorite too!).
I still have a favorite author who continues to write J/S and I lap her stuff up! But, she also sees the canon and the characters the way I do, and accepts that her own fiction is not canonically supported. She gets around some of that by not tying her fiction to any specific time-line, with very few references to canon particulars (episodes, etc.). In doing that, her fiction still works beautifully for me, even though I don't believe a word of it. LOL! :D
Thanks for chat - it was interesting!
no subject
Date: 2003-07-27 08:23 pm (UTC)Oh, anytime! *g* I thoroughly enjoyed it.