(no subject)

[out_there]

There's 40 minutes to go on a Friday afternoon. You don't expect me to be working, do you?

I've been thinking about what happyminion mentioned about Lionel's past. I mentioned earlier how Lionel really has the ruthless ambition that I'd always liked in comic-Lex (or, in my case, "Lois and Clark"-Lex and movie-Lex, but sticking to comic-Lex is an easier reference *g*) so I'm not too surprised.

I am, however, vaguely disappointed about SV turning Lionel into comic-Lex. I should be happy. For all those who don't want to believe in the Clex rift, we have a perfect scapegoat. Of course Lex doesn't turn evil, Clark just fights against the way Lionel runs LuthorCorp. It's an easy out for Clex fics, and it's certainly makes the pairing easier to work with for futurefics. It also makes Lanning Cook's Identical Series incredibly convincing.

On the other hand, it's the show itself that I'm concerned about. I do like MR's Lex. Sure, he can be immature and bratty at times, but he's a hell of a lot of fun, and it's almost impossible not to like him. On the other hand, I liked comic-Lex, because he's a great villian. Intelligent, ruthless, ambitious; someone who enjoys their stature and power; who rather enjoys the fact that he doesn't have to play by the rules.

Now, what is the future for SV-Lex?

It's a certainty that SV is eventually going to turn Lex bad, but now I'm concerned about how evil he's going to be. I have a feeling that SV-Lex will be... well, to borrow a phrase from Dr Evil, "the diet pepsi of evil". Our Lex is emotional and concerned for others. He cares and he yearns; he still mourns his mother and longs for his father's approval. I can't actually see him as ever being cold-hearted enough to commit the atrocities that Lex Luthor is supposed to.

I don't think he's ever going to reach the depths of evil that Lionel seems easily capable of. And it saddens me that I think that one of my favourite shows is going to end up saddled with a villian who will never be as frightening, intimidating or downright enjoyable as his previous incarnations.

Of course, this feeling is also caused by the fact that I prefer Wendi's Leo Luthor series than the show canon. Man, I wanted that to be Lionel's background. I would have far preferred that the show stop making Lionel a symbol of pure evil, and make him understandable. I think that there was more promise in S1 of Lionel not being the devil and it was far more fun to be ambigious about his morals. To make us question how much of Lex's attitudes are caused by Lionel's cruelty, and how much is caused by Lex's own preconceptions about who Lionel is. A fic that explores this idea wonderfully is celli's Smoke and Mirrors.

Personally, I like the idea of Lex being someone who isn't seeing reality quite the way it is. I'm intrigued by the idea of Lionel being a caring father (albeit one who believes in harsh lessons and has difficulty expressing his love) and Lex being rather unstable and consistantly seeing things in the wrong light.

I think it would lead to Lex being a truly chilling villian, but I don't expect that network TV could actually get away with it. You can't have one of the most popular characters (in a show aimed at young people) be emotionally or mentally unbalanced. I'm not surprised by how SV is shaping up, but sometimes I long for the pure creep factor of the pilot, when the show was still rathe unnerving, before Lex had been so subtly white-washed.

What I need to remember is that as the idea of "Lex as a villian" becomes weaker, the idea of "Clark and Lex are Meant To Be" become more believeable.

If I get time, I'll come back and edit this post to include links to the fics mentioned.

Comments

[happyminion.livejournal.com]

Thanks for pimpage, but I'm really confused about what you want to see in this Lex, based on this:

Personally, I like the idea of Lex being someone who isn't seeing reality quite the way it is. I'm intrigued by the idea of Lionel being a caring father (albeit one who believes in harsh lessons and has difficulty expressing his love) and Lex being rather unstable and consistantly seeing things in the wrong light.

So you'd rather see Lex crazy and incapable of distinguishing right and wrong, than sane and making conscious decisions not to be fucked over by the world, anymore, even when it means taking morally questionable stances? I think it would be a gross (meaning huge, not disgusting, stupid slang, *g*) cop out for Smallville to take this stance, rather than what they've done, which is consistently show us a Lex who *knows* right from wrong, who makes decisions based on the difference, and who is basically getting screwed over everytime he tries to do the right thing. It makes for a much more human, sympathetic villain, to the point that I'm actively cheering him on to say screw them *all* and go off to make himself a great man, no matter the costs.

It's a new kind of villian they're creating in Lex Luthor, or really--maybe it's just more of a Marvel type villain, who does reprehensible or morally questionable things, but who believes in his own idealogy, and who *has some good points ingrained in that darkness*. I mean, at the heart of Lex's anti-Superman stance isn't *just* that Superman stops him from taking over everything within sight, but it's the fact that Superman's an alien who has superior powers to all of us, and could turn on a dime. He's good on a whim, as far as Lex is concerned. He's not to be trusted with our fate, etc. So...I think Smallville's going a long way towards building that villain, who never has just *one* reason for doing anything, and who has a very clear grasp on right and wrong, but who applies it very subjectively, and filters it through whatever lens he wants.

To me, the making of this man comes in large part from Lionel being a corrupting influence. The tragic irony of Lex's story is that in trying *not* to be his father, he becomes some evolved version of Lionel--a snake with much more finesse, who *does* have a heart, who just doesn't trust *anyone* with it. I think it's safe to say that if Lex had the very basic center of family and friends that he could trust implicity, he wouldn't turn into the villain of the future, he'd be--well, quite a formidable team with Clark Kent, his best friend and lovah 4-Eva.

I know that the RWR crowd has their basic hopes and dreams, but I also know that I am *enthralled* with Smallville's Lex knowing full *well* that he's going to be a bad ass in the future. It would be a huge letdown to me if I thought that the man who was an eternal thorn in Superman's side was just a fragmented soul who was driven over the brink into madness by circumstance. I want Lex to know full well what he's doing, and do it anyway, own up to it, *believe in it*, just as Superman will. Clark and Lex, former best friends and arguably soul mates, give the story its tragedy and heart--their endless fued gives the story its passion, and I don't want one of them operating with all the lights on, and the other with no one home.

[out-there.livejournal.com]

*hugs Wendi* Man, sometimes I love your metaphors/expressions. Highly effective.

Okay, getting back to the topic...

It's not that I want Lex crazy, per se. I'd like... I'd like to see more complexity in the relationship between Lionel and Lex. I'd like to be able to watch and sometimes believe in Lionel's better intentions. I'd like to be able to watch and be allowed to dislike Lex for his attitudes.

Okay, my opinion on this is mixed-up, to say the least, and I'm generally not particularly coherent when I start thinking about what I like/dislike in shows. I sometimes have trouble figuring out the logic behind my thoughts, so it's certainly not always clear to others.

What I dislike is the absolute, I guess. I don't want Lex stark, raving mad. However, I would like to doubt him more.

You know what? This is probably just a weird mood of mine, but I'm almost longing for Reaper. Think about the Luthor plot of that episode. For most of it, the contrast between Lex and Dominic was wonderful. Suddenly, there was this stark contrast between the Luthors and the rest of the world. It was rather enjoyable to be able to watch someone call Lex on his faults, on the way he plays the victim and believes the world revolves around him. I found it highly intriguing that for the most part, until that last scene with Lionel and Dominic in the trunk, it made you wonder how much of the relationship between Lex and Lionel was all inside Lex's head.

(Unfortunately, it also made me carry a grudge against Lex for quite a while. That amount of bratty self-absorbtion, of treating an internal auditor like a sack of potatoes, really annoyed me.)

I'm asking for the impossible.

Maybe it's american television, maybe it's just a side-effect of mainstream television, but probably it's just me. I'm a little sick of having to "like" the bad guys. I'm longing for the simple idea of a person can do bad things, not for the right reason but just because they want to, and enjoy them. I'm sick of the victim mentality, where everyone commits these horrible acts because of their past, and their family, and they didn't get enough love in their childhoods. I'm sick of being asked to love the characters and excuse them for doing wrong, because I'm supposed to feel sorry for them.

So you'd rather see Lex crazy and incapable of distinguishing right and wrong, than sane and making conscious decisions not to be fucked over by the world, anymore, even when it means taking morally questionable stances?

You know what? For tonight, I don't care. I have yet to see just how "fucked over" Lex is being. For tonight, I'm going to keep my stance that for the main part, he's a whiny *brat* who doesn't see how good he's got it. There is potential, there is opportunity, and I just need to step back and remind myself he's not real, and there is no way he's meant to live in the real world. In the SV-verse, kidnapping is part of everyday business tactics, and 21 years olds run their own companies. And, young men who have lots of sports cars, fancy clothes, and live in their fathers' friggin' mansion, are not doing so badly.

*le sigh*

It's not Lex's fault. I know this. I'm just tired, and I'm generally sick of the idea of entitlement. Unfortunately, when it comes to certain material things, Lex does have this strong sense that it belongs to him. Possibly, I'm selling Al and Miles short. There are these intriguing character flaws in Lex, that have just been *accepted* by his fans. Possibly, turning the spotlight onto Lionel as the Big Bad is just a case of disraction, and I'm going to be thrilled when they show Lex submitting to his own internal flaws. I can live in cautious hope.

The ridiculous thing is that regardless of the crappy dialogue and dodgy character development, MR and Glover sell their scenes so well, that I'm always entranced by them. Seriously, I could watch an hour of the Luthors' organising grocery shopping and have a good time.

[happyminion.livejournal.com]

I'm longing for the simple idea of a person can do bad things, not for the right reason but just because they want to, and enjoy them. I'm sick of the victim mentality, where everyone commits these horrible acts because of their past, and their family, and they didn't get enough love in their childhoods. I'm sick of being asked to love the characters and excuse them for doing wrong, because I'm supposed to feel sorry for them.

Then watch the news. It's populated with mothers who drown their children in the tub and predators who lure then massacre hapless strangers. I watch my news cast for the harsh realities, I watch my dramas for the same reason people filed into theatres to watch overwrought characters do drastic things in Elizabethan times. Storytelling at its best is about shading characters and situations, and about making the viewer question themselves as much as a the events/people they're watching ('Oh god, I can't wait til he kills Lionel...wait, I'm actively anticipating the murder of a man?'). Watching Lex gleefully run around Smallville doing bad because he *can* and on a whim makes for a very two dimensional character. Where's the motive behind it? "Because I can." Okaaay, but that gets boring after one season when you don't have any real reason behind it.

Having read this, I'll say that I just don't think we watch the same show, or at the very least, we don't watch the show the same *way*, and both want entirely different things from Smallville. It delivers for me, obviously something about its delivery lacks for you.

Personally, I would say that in the real world, usually people who are assholes had influences in life that brought them to be assholes. There are the occasional sociopaths or psychopaths born, who are bad because of an actual, chemical imbalance or lack of some kind of moral compass in their head, but some of the worst kinds of bad are people who learned to be that way, by suffering abuse or neglect. Just because Lex comes from a filthy rich family doesn't mean he didn't suffer neglect. His father raised him according to great works of literature and thinkers, not through compassion. Arguably in the coming months, we'll see certain kinds of abuse going on that extend far beyond merely neglecting to love a child in its formative years.

I think that the worst people are often those who started out with good intentions, then found along the way that it's a lot easier to just be concerned with yourself, rather than others (this is the thing that makes us, the average joe, relate to someone like Lex Luthor--otherwise, we're just watching JR Ewing, sans hat, be a bastard for the sake of gleeful, trashy entertainment). Selfishness is definitely the easier route to take than selflessness. If I want a black and white villain, there will be comic books and stories to entertain me. I've had a pretty textbook bad villain for fifty or so years in comics-Lex Luthor, which is why he's never interested me until Smallville. Now that I see the man behind the icon, with all of his trials and tests, it makes him that much more real to me.

Hope once said to me that she has always struggled with liking Superman because she finds it hard to believe that someone would be purely good, just...because. That there were no ulterior motives, there was no indecision, he was just purely good, for goodness' sake. I had the same trouble with Lex Luthor, who just seemed like a megalomaniac throwing a series of tantrums. Smallville has made Superman and Luthor human, and I want the subtle shades of gray in both of them, before the stark colors of their future comic book world come into play.

But like I said, I think we're coming at this from very different places and have zero chance of convincing each other. *g* I'm just telling you why I think this Lex *does* appeal to me, and why the future their working towards excites me almost as much as the journey they're taking Lex on, to get him there.

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Hope once said to me that she has always struggled with liking Superman because she finds it hard to believe that someone would be purely good, just...because. That there were no ulterior motives, there was no indecision, he was just purely good, for goodness' sake. I had the same trouble with Lex Luthor, who just seemed like a megalomaniac throwing a series of tantrums. Smallville has made Superman and Luthor human, and I want the subtle shades of gray in both of them, before the stark colors of their future comic book world come into play.

It's not that SV Lex doesn't appeal to me. I think, I was just having a moment of nostalgia for the classic-Lex. I do have to admit, however, that the more human side of Clark does appeal to me greatly. It's well-worth seeing Lex being so vulnerable, because I get to see Clark just as vulnerable. It all evens out in the end.

I'm almost a little wary of how much of a villian SV Lex will turn out to be, but you do have a great point. If they can pull it off, the whole being a villian for almost good reasons, I'll be highly impressed. A human, well-rounded villian is far more believable and forces the audience to... interact more with the show. (Or, as someone once told me, a good villian makes the difference between a good story and a great one.)

...

You know, I'm being downright contradictory. Possibly my bitch isn't that Lex is too human, so much that Lionel seems to be becoming the inhuman villian. I started watching the show with the deep-down belief that Lex would be this future meglomaniac. I didn't expect Lionel to be the main villian of SV.

Possibly, my discontent has little to do with how Lex seems to have been almost weakened, and more to do with the show doing the unexpected.

Of course, you are right. In the broader scheme of things (if they do this well), when Lex does become a supervillian, he'll truly be something frightening.

Part I

[latxcvi.livejournal.com]

I'm going slightly out of order in terms of replying to sections of this:

I'm a little sick of having to "like" the bad guys. I'm longing for the simple idea of a person can do bad things, not for the right reason but just because they want to, and enjoy them. I'm sick of the victim mentality, where everyone commits these horrible acts because of their past, and their family, and they didn't get enough love in their childhoods. I'm sick of being asked to love the characters and excuse them for doing wrong, because I'm supposed to feel sorry for them.

Um ... aren't you the same person who was all about the ways Clark, Chloe and Lana screw up and defending that because it made them more well-rounded as characters? I'm not sure as to why you think you need to be/feel differently towards Lex. Or, alternatively, if you don't particularly feel sympathetic towards Lex why you're making it sound as though you're being *required* to be. You aren't, I don't think, by the show itself (and if you feel like you are by the fandom, well ... you probably know all about trying to have and keep the courage of one's own convictions; there's no fandom rule that says Everyone Has to Like and Understand Everything Lex (Or Any Other Character) Does All The Time).

There's a big difference between something that's offered to explain the context within which characters make the choices they do and something that's offered as an *excuse* for same. I think I take exception to the idea that what SV is doing with Lex is the latter. Because I think it's very much the former. As people, our decisions, for good or ill, are necessarily informed by the events in our lives and I think what SV is doing with both Lex *and* Clark is showing how their active, conscious decisions to Do and Be Evil and Good, respectively, flow from that same rubric. MMV, of course, but I definitely see the show expecting us to do more excusing of Clark's behavior (as the hero) and Lana's (as the Golden Girl), than it ever expects us to do with Lex's. Understand where Lex is coming from? Yes, absolutely. That's what the show is trying to do. Excuse his bad choices and decisions? I really don't see that. Particularly when those choices and decisions almost always have some kind of consequence for him - and have since Day One - in a way they very rarely, if ever, have for Clark and Lana.

Suddenly, there was this stark contrast between the Luthors and the rest of the world. It was rather enjoyable to be able to watch someone call Lex on his faults, on the way he plays the victim and believes the world revolves around him. I found it highly intriguing that for the most part, until that last scene with Lionel and Dominic in the trunk, it made you wonder how much of the relationship between Lex and Lionel was all inside Lex's head.

(Unfortunately, it also made me carry a grudge against Lex for quite a while. That amount of bratty self-absorbtion, of treating an internal auditor like a sack of potatoes, really annoyed me.)

Okay, these two paragraphs? Completely contradict each other. You say you were happy to see someone calling Lex on his bullshit, then you say it's unfortunate it happened because it made you carry a grudge against the character. I mean, you know, which is it that you want? To be able to be comfortably critical of Lex or to feel like you have to always be understanding? Frankly, I see nothing wrong with the former. Like I said above, I think the show *expects* us to be able to say, "Oh, look. Lex is doing bad shit again and it's going to get him into trouble." But I don't think the show expects or requires us to be all "Oh, but it's okay because it's Lex" OR "I should feel bad I thought that about Lex." So, I guess I'm just not clear with what you're trying to say here. The show made you critical of Lex's behavior in Reaper and if that's actually what you want it to be doing, then why is it unfortunate that it made you mad at him? That strikes me as, like, the point.

Re: Part I

[out-there.livejournal.com]

*sniggers at self* Well, I've never said that I'm consistent.

The show made you critical of Lex's behavior in Reaper and if that's actually what you want it to be doing, then why is it unfortunate that it made you mad at him?

Honestly, I'm perfectly happy supporting Lex, and heavens above know that everytime he's onscreen, I do. Reaper... Reaper annoyed me and entertained me. I have mixed emotions about it.

I don't think... I don't think it was a smart move to have Dominic in there. Possibly, this is just an Annie thing. I found that as much as I enjoyed seeing Lex pulled up, it just... made me think differently about SV for a while. It threw the SV world into a strong contrast against the real world, and real business expectations. It suddenly made my powers of 'willing disbelief' much weaker, and left me thinking about SV as far too real.

Likewise, that's what's got me hot under the collar about Lionel, I think. If I sit back and think of it as a highly stylised fictional world, I can accept and enjoy the characters as they are. When I try to think of them realistically, the characters, especially Lex, really annoy me. I don't have this trouble when actually watching the show, it's only when I stop to think about it.

I mean, it's highly clear that you bring your own issues to shows. And that's really what I'm doing here. I don't think my comments are valid criticisms of the show itself, just a rather emotional rambling on my part. These are the reasons I should avoid all meta conversations. *bg*

It's a Sunday afternoon, I'm laid back and remembering how much I actually do love SV. I need to remember not to post and ramble on Friday afternoons.

Part II

[latxcvi.livejournal.com]

You know what? For tonight, I don't care. I have yet to see just how "fucked over" Lex is being. For tonight, I'm going to keep my stance that for the main part, he's a whiny *brat* who doesn't see how good he's got it. There is potential, there is opportunity, and I just need to step back and remind myself he's not real, and there is no way he's meant to live in the real world. In the SV-verse, kidnapping is part of everyday business tactics, and 21 years olds run their own companies. And, young men who have lots of sports cars, fancy clothes, and live in their fathers' friggin' mansion, are not doing so badly.

Annie, I don't know any way to ask this so as not to sound like I'm being snarky, so I'll just ask it with the caveat that I'm not being snarky, but - how much of the show have you actually seen? Because with all due respect, it really does sound to me like you're largely talking about S1!Lex here, who was pretty much a Brat Prince Extraordinaire. The character's done a lot of growing and changing over the course of seasons 2 and 3 (so far) and I wonder how much of your, uh, 'take' on him isn't hampered by the fact that you haven't seen his arc, as a character, to its fullest extent. I mean, if you have seen all of the series, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on what the show is really trying to do with Lex. But if you've really only seen S1 and parts of S2/S3, I'd like to gently suggest you're not working with the fullest picture you could be in terms of assessing what the show is and isn't doing with Lex.

I'm generally sick of the idea of entitlement. Unfortunately, when it comes to certain material things, Lex does have this strong sense that it belongs to him.

He's rich, sweets. That's pretty much what it's like when one is. Rich people are likely to think most material things can be theirs because if you're rich enough, most material things *can be*.

Possibly, I'm selling Al and Miles short. There are these intriguing character flaws in Lex, that have just been *accepted* by his fans. Possibly, turning the spotlight onto Lionel as the Big Bad is just a case of disraction, and I'm going to be thrilled when they show Lex submitting to his own internal flaws. I can live in cautious hope.

Lex knows he has flaws, Annie. He's also well aware when he's doing bad shit just to do it. I think you are selling AlMiles short because they've said, all along, that they're headed towards a destination where everything ends badly, where Lex and Clark aren't friends and aren't on the same side, and Lex *is* the villain. Frankly, I think the villainy that emerges from this Lex will be compelling and intriguing to see because it *won't* have just one simple motivation behind it. "Want, take, have" is great motivation if the grandest thing a body wants to do is have a nice home. To rule the world? I'd like to think it requires a little more than that.

Re: Part II

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Because with all due respect, it really does sound to me like you're largely talking about S1!Lex here, who was pretty much a Brat Prince Extraordinaire. The character's done a lot of growing and changing over the course of seasons 2 and 3 (so far) and I wonder how much of your, uh, 'take' on him isn't hampered by the fact that you haven't seen his arc, as a character, to its fullest extent.

Point and score!

I do need to catch up on S2/S3. Hopefully, I'll do so soon. But, until I do, I should keep my personal gripes to myself. *g*

"Want, take, have" is great motivation if the grandest thing a body wants to do is have a nice home. To rule the world? I'd like to think it requires a little more than that.

Wonderfully phrased, and you are completely right. I just need to stop being so impatient, and sit back and let it happen. It's going to be a hell of a ride.

*nods enthusiastically*

[thucyken.livejournal.com]

I agree with many of your points. For me, there's something purely wonderful about the hero and the villain just going at absolute loggerheads with one another.
In many ways, I feel like Smallville shies away from having Clark and Lex confront one another, other than in... eh, I don't WANT to say bitchy... slightly weakened ways. They never seem to have all-out confrontations. It's all sidestepping around secrets and feelings.
Now, the thing about heroes and villains is their fights are no-holds-barred honest. I would love to see how Clark and Lex would react to that kind of confrontation. Unfortunately, the closest SV ever seems to get is, 'The villain got in one telling phrase before they got carted away/is more like me than I would have thought. I brood about this now.'
There's a wonderful science fiction book whose name escapes me, in which there's a concept of a destined enemy. You and your enemy have the same abilities, so you strive and strive, ever becoming better, to try and defeat them. And they do the same. It's the refinement of character and power that can only come from absolute enmity.
I would love to see that happen in Smallville... love to see Clark and Lex challenged in the original sense of the word, not just emotionally, but physically and spiritually... love to see them tear wounds in each other and grow all the stronger from it. Will I? No.
But then, this is what fanfic is for.

Re: *nods enthusiastically*

[out-there.livejournal.com]

'The villain got in one telling phrase before they got carted away/is more like me than I would have thought. I brood about this now.'

*sniggers* Oh, you are so right about that.

There is a certain something about being challenged through competition and aggression. But, you also pointed out something I hadn't thought of before. It is the typical Superhero and Supervillian roles to play.

Maybe I shouldn't be mourning Lex's fall from being a Supervillian, because it evens out the fact that Clark isn't a Superhero yet. Possibly, have Lex's future evil weakened is the price I have to pay for seeing a more human and enjoyable side of Clark.

Hmmm...

One more point ...

[latxcvi.livejournal.com]

... and then I'll shut up and leave the floor to you, but I think *this* is the key to why I'm reacting so strongly to some of your comments:

Maybe I shouldn't be mourning Lex's fall from being a Supervillian, because it evens out the fact that Clark isn't a Superhero yet. Possibly, have Lex's future evil weakened is the price I have to pay for seeing a more human and enjoyable side of Clark.

This is kind of my own issues/pet peeves rearing their nattering little heads *g*, but ... Millar and Gough have been very clear, from Day One, that their main goal with Clark and Lex in SV is to try and explain how and why they end up becoming *Clark Kent* and *Lex Luthor*, Pop Culture Icons Extraordinaire. M&G have *never once* suggested that the ending point of the series would be anything *other than* Clark and Lex poised on the brink of stepping into their iconic roles as world's greatest super-hero and his great arch-nemesis/villain. They intend to get to a point where the Clark Kent and Lex Luthor we see at the end of the series can slot, if not perfectly, then at least *neatly*, into what their iconic roles more or less look like in the uber-canon. Clark will be a hero and Lex will be a villain.

And I think I just tend to get ... kind of frustrated with it when fellow fans seem unable to be ... patient about the 'getting there' part. It's only a third of the way through third season. The show has, at a minimum, two more complete seasons to fill after this one. Without even being overly optimist or glass-half-full grrl about any of this, I think it's reasonably safe to say that the series is only just *now* starting actively to move Clark and Lex in consistent forward momentum down the paths of the Men They Will Become. So, I guess I just feel as though hand-wringing over the idea that Clark or Lex isn't going to turn out to be some variation of exactly what any of us familiar with the uber-canon are expecting them to be is a bit, um, premature. I certainly think it's reasonable to say that the Lex of SV isn't going to be the outright *sociopath* the Lex of current comics continuity is because SV!Lex simply isn't a sociopath (and that's one of those things like pregnancy - one is or one isn't; one is never something vaguely 'in between' *g*). But does that stand to reason he's still not going to end up as one of the baddest bad asses whoever bad assed? No. It doesn't at all. It seems to me that what SV is trying to do is explain *how and why* Lex ends up getting to a point where he *only* cares about other people to the extent of What They Can Do For Him in the furtherance of his goals. If he were *already* at that point, then there'd really be no purpose to the character; there would have been no reason for making him part of the SV story at all, since the SV story is, at its core, about a state of 'becoming.'

Re: One more point ...

[out-there.livejournal.com]

You have a great point there. That is something that occured to me after thinking it through for a bit. I *am* just being impatient. I'm expecting the finished product *now*, when I should be sitting back and enjoying the slow rise and fall of Clark and Lex.

I really do apologise if I got you riled up about this. The post was probably more inspired by Friday afternoon weariness and bile, than Lex's actual flaws. Of course, another part of it is just general aggravation cause by the fact that I want to be able to watch this damn show. I really, really, really do, and if I can work out the technological side of this (with the help of a few friends), I'll probably be filled with love of SV again.

Re: *nods enthusiastically*

[nebt-het.livejournal.com]

If I understand what you are saying I think you are looking for a different version. There really can't be a big confrontation on Smallville because Clark is lying almost as much as Lex. In showing how covering up his secret prevents him from being honest with people around him, Smallville can never be a straight out villian/hero show when it comes to Lex and Clark. They aren't supposed to be heroes OR villians yet. Therefore letting Lionel or a mutant be the bad guy allows them that story dynamic but without compromising the relationship that is still developing between Lex or Clark. When "Superman" is created and shows himself as a being with powers, etc. he can stand there and declare all he wants. Does that make sense?

Re: *nods enthusiastically*

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Therefore letting Lionel or a mutant be the bad guy allows them that story dynamic but without compromising the relationship that is still developing between Lex or Clark. When "Superman" is created and shows himself as a being with powers, etc. he can stand there and declare all he wants. Does that make sense?

Yes. What I need to do is to relax and let SV develop. I think I'm looking for the Evil Lex Luthor far too early in the story. *g*

Re: *nods enthusiastically*

[nebt-het.livejournal.com]

...well if he is the character you like that is understandable..
but then you might not like the show too much until around Season 5 or so. *grin*

Re: *nods enthusiastically*

[out-there.livejournal.com]

The really silly thing? I actually do enjoy the show. A hell of a lot.

I just get gripey on a Friday afternoon, and it's irritating me that I want to be able to watch the show (and until I work out if a certain file will work on my PC, I can't.). Because I haven't been able to keep up to date, and I don't want to spoil myself too badly, the knowledge about Lionel's background got dropped into my brain a little too suddenly, and I think I overreacted to it. *g*

All the same, thanks for the thoughts. It's always good to be reminded of just how good the show is. *g*

[nebt-het.livejournal.com]

I really liked Reaper too. In fact it has some of my favorite scenes. However I think I saw it a bit differently. I have been really enjoying Lionel because in many scenes I DON'T know if he is evil or not. Sure he's twisted but in some ways does he really think he is evil or is he doing what he thinks is necessary for his son? I like the idea of Lionel's background (though I'm not a comics person) because it makes it even more real to me that Lionel thinks that "pampered" Lex needs to know the realities of the world (in Lionel's head) and that not even your best friend is trust worthy.

As for Dominic.. if you look at that scene as a dialogue between father and son it may not seem so petty to you. Lex is declaring his independence in that scene and Dom is unfortunately a pawn that is used by BOTH of them because the important point is each other. Lionel's fabulous line.."what has he done, what has he done"...really gave me the insight into that character for a long time (and even with next week) and I hope I continue to be right. Cause I want as much John Glover as I can get!

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Well, to me, Dominic came over as a rather refreshingly normal person. Part of this is just that I'm studying accounting, and Dominic's role was that of an internal auditor. The questions he was asking were perfectly legitimate (Lex's replies were basically unbelievable).

To be honest, I held a grudge agaisnt Reaper for a while. Simply because it suddenly made me see Lex in a realistic light, and it made me feel for Lionel. Regardless of how evil Lex thinks he is, raising Lex would have been hell.

I like the idea of Lionel's background (though I'm not a comics person) because it makes it even more real to me that Lionel thinks that "pampered" Lex needs to know the realities of the world (in Lionel's head) and that not even your best friend is trust worthy.


*nods* It does make a lot of sense. I have to admit that since I've had time to think about it, I've have changed my mind a bit. It works well for SV and that's far more important than sticking to canon (especially when there's already so many versions of it anyway).

Cause I want as much John Glover as I can get!

Oh yes. Regardless of my issues about the difference between movie canon and SV canon, I adore John Glover. His scenes with MR are generally the best scenes in each episode. They just spark off each other and are so enjoyable to watch.

yep...

[nebt-het.livejournal.com]

I thought you were probably identifying with Dominic and unfortunately to Lex, as I see it, that scene is all about him communicating with his father in the only way he can to get his attention. And yes, seeing Dominic as an "employee/drone" for him to utilize as he sees fit. So we will have to disagree. I thought it was a very telling Lex scene, and where you see it as bratty I saw it as him letting Lionel know he won't take his interference lightly. Thanks for the discussion!