Meta, meta, meta.
Jul. 21st, 2004 02:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
out_thereJenn pointed out that ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
pandares just wrote up some big ranty meta entries about fandom (Online relationships, Literature and Pornography and Taboos - Is Hetcest really the new Slash?). There are quite a few references to HP fandom, but I still found them interesting.
In particular, what interested me was in her second rant, about the differences in fiction. She said that:
I distinguish between writing something I *believe* and writing something to fit in with an agenda. ... I tried to make it as honest and plausible as I could, but the bottom line was still 'this is gratuitous' rather than 'this is true'.
I'm very intrigued by that, because it's something I do, without having a term for it. There are stories of mine (my personal favourites, like Handsome/Attractive or College Years) which I feel are *true*, that given that situation, that's *exactly* how the characters would act. I see it as being "true" to the characters. It's a characterisation that isn't just supported by canon, but also reflects how I personally see canon.
Other fics, like That Guy. I like as writing exercises, because I wanted to prove that this or that could be done. I enjoy them as an example of what could happen, of a possibility, of proof of my (sometimes questionable) writing ability, but I don't *believe* them. I think that they're possiblities, that the characterisation is supported by canon, but it's not my personal Dana or Casey. It's not who I like to think of them as being.
Now, thinking about this, there's a lot of fics that I could divide up this way. Random Things About Casey McCall is true, because that's my-Casey, complete with silly mannerisms and idiosyncrasies.
Likewise, A Poor Substitute is true, because it's my Dana, my Lisa and my Casey, and that's *what* *happened*. But Girls' Night In isn't true, even though that's my Lisa and my Dana, deep-down I don't *believe* that they'd do that. I think they *could*, but that's very different from thinking they *would*.
Also, Yes, No and Maybe isn't true, and it's... Huh. The Dan and Casey feel right, but the fic was written specifically with the thought of 'Dan officially not dating'. It was a version of Casey responding to a version of Dan. The Magical Powers of a New Shirt isn't, because my Dan isn't so inexperienced. He could be, but he isn't.
Now, a couple of months ago, I remember complaining to Celli that I didn't have set mynon for the SN characters. Yet, over a few months of writing them, I've discovered My characters through trying to write any version of the characters. I've written mythical characters, ones that I don't believe in (straight-Casey, slashy-Isaac, betraying-Dana) and somehow, by doing that, I've come to understand the ones that I do believe in.
Needless to say, whether I strictly "believe" in the characters or not, it doesn't make it any less fun to write or read them. Sometimes, the most interesting and thought-provoking fics can be the ones that you don't quite believe, but *almost* could.
pandares just wrote up some big ranty meta entries about fandom (Online relationships, Literature and Pornography and Taboos - Is Hetcest really the new Slash?). There are quite a few references to HP fandom, but I still found them interesting.In particular, what interested me was in her second rant, about the differences in fiction. She said that:
I distinguish between writing something I *believe* and writing something to fit in with an agenda. ... I tried to make it as honest and plausible as I could, but the bottom line was still 'this is gratuitous' rather than 'this is true'.
I'm very intrigued by that, because it's something I do, without having a term for it. There are stories of mine (my personal favourites, like Handsome/Attractive or College Years) which I feel are *true*, that given that situation, that's *exactly* how the characters would act. I see it as being "true" to the characters. It's a characterisation that isn't just supported by canon, but also reflects how I personally see canon.
Other fics, like That Guy. I like as writing exercises, because I wanted to prove that this or that could be done. I enjoy them as an example of what could happen, of a possibility, of proof of my (sometimes questionable) writing ability, but I don't *believe* them. I think that they're possiblities, that the characterisation is supported by canon, but it's not my personal Dana or Casey. It's not who I like to think of them as being.
Now, thinking about this, there's a lot of fics that I could divide up this way. Random Things About Casey McCall is true, because that's my-Casey, complete with silly mannerisms and idiosyncrasies.
Likewise, A Poor Substitute is true, because it's my Dana, my Lisa and my Casey, and that's *what* *happened*. But Girls' Night In isn't true, even though that's my Lisa and my Dana, deep-down I don't *believe* that they'd do that. I think they *could*, but that's very different from thinking they *would*.
Also, Yes, No and Maybe isn't true, and it's... Huh. The Dan and Casey feel right, but the fic was written specifically with the thought of 'Dan officially not dating'. It was a version of Casey responding to a version of Dan. The Magical Powers of a New Shirt isn't, because my Dan isn't so inexperienced. He could be, but he isn't.
Now, a couple of months ago, I remember complaining to Celli that I didn't have set mynon for the SN characters. Yet, over a few months of writing them, I've discovered My characters through trying to write any version of the characters. I've written mythical characters, ones that I don't believe in (straight-Casey, slashy-Isaac, betraying-Dana) and somehow, by doing that, I've come to understand the ones that I do believe in.
Needless to say, whether I strictly "believe" in the characters or not, it doesn't make it any less fun to write or read them. Sometimes, the most interesting and thought-provoking fics can be the ones that you don't quite believe, but *almost* could.
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no subject
Date: 2004-07-20 10:20 pm (UTC)That's something I've been trying to articulate lately, with respect to BtVS/AtS: that there are things I believe are (at least sometimes) just as canonically-supported as the things in Mynon, and I can play with them for the course of a story, quite happily, but that that's still not my version of the character. That's me, playing with possibilities, because that's one of the things that makes fan fiction fun for me.
Sometimes I do write Mynon. A lot of the time, I don't. And sometimes I almost want to label the stories as (for example) "this is not my Giles. It's just a Giles."
no subject
Date: 2004-07-20 10:26 pm (UTC)Yes, exactly! *nods*
It's a version of the character, not who I personally believe the character is. Just who they could be.
Writing pure mynon is a little... boring, on one hand, and restrictive on the other. I like writing non-mynon (okay, am I the only one amused by that phrase? *sniggers*), because it's both an extra challenge to the fan/writer in me, and because it further defines mynon by comparison.
(And, because I have to mention it: nice icon!)
no subject
Date: 2004-07-20 11:54 pm (UTC)Now, I'm very clear that mynon is not the same as canon. In SN, for example, Dan/Casey is mynon, although it's also mynon that nothing happened until after the last episode. I do know it's not canon.
But still. If it's mynon that nothing happened during the actual series, and I only write mynon, that limits me greatly. So instead, I write other things. And they're equally possible, but they don't have the same privileged position in my brain. They're sort of... argh, slipping back into Buffyverse metaphor. But they're the World Without Shrimp. They're possible alternates. And I write them because I like playing with possibilities.
And yes, I like this icon very much. I'm coming to terms with my inner B/A shipper. *g*
no subject
Date: 2004-07-21 12:20 am (UTC)Exactly. In canon, Dan/Casey happened about halfway through S2. Oh, that wasn't what you meant, was it? *g*
But still. If it's mynon that nothing happened during the actual series, and I only write mynon, that limits me greatly. So instead, I write other things. And they're equally possible, but they don't have the same privileged position in my brain.
*nods* Yes, both possible, but one is preferable. It resonates on a deeper level than non-mynon.
They're sort of... argh, slipping back into Buffyverse metaphor. But they're the World Without Shrimp. They're possible alternates. And I write them because I like playing with possibilities.
*giggles* Mynon = World Without Shrimp?
That's a great analogy!
I am so very rambly tonight....
Date: 2004-07-21 01:32 am (UTC)*cracks up* Okay, fair enough.
*nods* Yes, both possible, but one is preferable. It resonates on a deeper level than non-mynon.
Exactly. Which makes it personal - you and I could both look at the same story, for example, and agree on how canonically-supported it is, and how well-written it is, etc., but if it agrees with your mynon and not with mine, you're going to have a stronger emotional resonance with it.
And this sort of gets at something I've been trying to put into words for ages, about OTPs. I always say that I'm not an OTP-person, really, because I'm not "this pairing and *only* this pairing." I can read and write other things. But only one pairing (or, in some cases, one pairing during a particular point in time) is "mynon" for a particular character. (Er. Sort of. Sometimes it gets complicated.) And I think different people have different levels of tolerance for how far from their own "mynon" they can happily get as a reader or writer. I can get pretty far, as long as I don't blatantly contradict the objective facts in canon (intentional AUs notwithstanding). Some people don't want to deviate much at all.
And yes. There's canon. And mynon is the World Without Shrimp. And your mynon is... the World With Shrimp But Without Apples. Or something like that....
Re: I am so very rambly tonight....
Date: 2004-07-21 02:07 am (UTC)Hee! And, yes, you're not the only rambley one today.
And this sort of gets at something I've been trying to put into words for ages, about OTPs. I always say that I'm not an OTP-person, really, because I'm not "this pairing and *only* this pairing." I can read and write other things. But only one pairing (or, in some cases, one pairing during a particular point in time) is "mynon" for a particular character. (Er. Sort of. Sometimes it gets complicated.)
Hmmm... I get that. I don't consider myself an OTP type person, because the first slash fandom (as opposed to yaoi) I really got into was BtVS/AtS. There's so many pairings there that can be made to work. Sure, I had preferences, but I'd read a little bit of everything.
In WW, I'm a Josh/Sam gal, except for when I'm Will/Sam gal. I *adore* Sam and could probably read most Sam slash (and the occasional het fic), it's only limited by how slashy I find the other characters. (Toby just doesn't get slashed in my mind. He just doesn't. He and Charlie are my token straight guys. Jed/Abbey's too sweet to break up, and I can only ever believe Leo being interested in Jed. Or once in Josh, but that was an wrong-bad-sexy type pairing, and I digress. *g*)
In SN? I'm frequently surprised at just *how* OTP I am about Casey/Dan. Not that I haven't read and written other pairings with those two, *but* Casey/Dan (and Jeremy/Nat) is the only one that appears in mynon. I'm constantly surprised that I've found a fandom where the pairing I most like reading about is also the pairing that I honestly believe are MTB and Made For Each Other, and all that other sappy stuff that means they'll be happy.
(Um, yes, I do feel like that about Angel/Buffy, but I'm not interested in reading or writing fics about them. I feel that way about Aeryn/John, but again, not interested in the fiction. I'm close to feeling that way about Wes/Gunn, but... not quite. I see the whole show through Wes/Gunn tainted glasses, but... deep down, I can be convinced that Wes or Gunn could be happy with someone else. That's what it is. That basic conviction that these two people are *right* for each other, in all the ways that matter.)
And I think different people have different levels of tolerance for how far from their own "mynon" they can happily get as a reader or writer. I can get pretty far, as long as I don't blatantly contradict the objective facts in canon (intentional AUs notwithstanding). Some people don't want to deviate much at all.
Um, yes, the point I was going to get to is that I'm more picky about characterisations than pairings. There's a great Dan/Josh fic (that everyone has read, even if I can't remember the title) that is a really good fic, with a really interesting pairing, but the Sam characterisation pulls me out of it every time. I'm comfortable with a different pairing, but I can't walk away from my mynon Sam too easily.
I find I tend to deviate from mynon because I want to prove something can be done (Dan/Isaac, for example), or because something's just occured to me when thinking about/watching SN and I want to theoretically test it out (like "That Guy", which was an example of Jerk-Casey, since I'd just watched S1 and was almost having trouble liking him).
The odd thing is that it isn't a conscious decision before writing. I don't step back and go 'if Casey was like this, this fic would work'. I actually sit down, write the fic, and then in hindsight I ealise whether or not it gels with my interior idea of SN. If so, it quickly becomes mynon. If not, it's just... not.
And now, I'd better dash to class before I'm late! (Thanks for the ramble, btw.)
Re: I am so very rambly tonight....
Date: 2004-07-21 08:01 am (UTC)I'm constantly surprised that I've found a fandom where the pairing I most like reading about is also the pairing that I honestly believe are MTB and Made For Each Other, and all that other sappy stuff that means they'll be happy.
Oh, yeah, I get that. I used to be like that about Due South, but, well, that was during the Vecchio years, and canon kicked me in the head. *g* But SN... yeah. I'm OTP-ish there.
(Um, yes, I do feel like that about Angel/Buffy, but I'm not interested in reading or writing fics about them.
That's one reason, I think, that I read more slash than het. It isn't the only reason. But given two pairings I feel equally warm and fuzzy and OTP-ish about (or, hey, two pairings I feel equally warm and not-fuzzy and wrong-and-bad-in-that-fun-way about), with one slash and one het, well... the het one is far more likely to be in canon, after all. We got canonical Angel/Buffy. We didn't get clearly canonical Casey/Dan. (Just "vaguely gay.")
I see the whole show through Wes/Gunn tainted glasses, but... deep down, I can be convinced that Wes or Gunn could be happy with someone else. That's what it is. That basic conviction that these two people are *right* for each other, in all the ways that matter.
And I think one of the reasons I don't get like that about a lot of pairings is that most people aren't like that. (99.9999% of people have to make do with being acceptably happy, after all!) Most people could be happy with more than one possible partner. At least, at some point in their lives. Perhaps after they and Partner A have been together for 40 years, no, but if they'd never met Partner A, and hooked up with Person B instead, they'd have been just as happy.
And then you get Dan and Casey. Buffy and Angel. (And Buffy and Angel are an interesting pair to look at, because they both canonically did have other relationships after Angel left Sunnydale (well, Angel sort of tried to, at least), and I still believe they're MFEO and MTB and so on and so forth.) Pairings where anyone else would be a substitute. Someone for companionship and sex, maybe, but not right for them.
I'm comfortable with a different pairing, but I can't walk away from my mynon Sam too easily.
As I said, or tried to, this isn't quite the same as my pairing issues, but it ties in. Characterization is the thing - but sometimes there's something in mynon that *is* pairing-related. (My Wesley is in love with Angel, even if he's also capable of loving other people. It's just true-for-me. It may not be true-for-you, or for anyone else, but it's true-for-me.)
But still, I have *my* Wesley (or whoever), and then there's a spectrum of acceptable Wesleys, and then there's the fic Wesleys I will not touch because they're too far from what I can believe. But there are other people with a much narrower spectrum of "acceptable" characterizations.
The odd thing is that it isn't a conscious decision before writing. I don't step back and go 'if Casey was like this, this fic would work'.
I get that. Sometimes it is for me, but generally only if I'm writing by request. Sometimes I know that I'm going to have to see if I can create a version of the character who can do thus-and-so.
And I really wish I knew why I have so much to say about this topic, and I also really wish I could have written all these words on a story instead. *g*
Re: I am so very rambly tonight....
Date: 2004-07-21 02:10 pm (UTC)will check it out after I'm dressed. (and, ohmigod, is that the time? Eep!)
Oh, yeah, I get that. I used to be like that about Due South, but, well, that was during the Vecchio years, and canon kicked me in the head. *g*
Speaking as someone who still hasn't seen S3...? *happy sigh* Mmmm... Vecchio.
That's one reason, I think, that I read more slash than het. It isn't the only reason. But given two pairings I feel equally warm and fuzzy and OTP-ish about (or, hey, two pairings I feel equally warm and not-fuzzy and wrong-and-bad-in-that-fun-way about), with one slash and one het, well... the het one is far more likely to be in canon, after all. We got canonical Angel/Buffy. We didn't get clearly canonical Casey/Dan. (Just "vaguely gay.")
*nods* Yes, that's probably it. My hetships are almost always canon, or at least hinted as a possibility by canon. The slash pairings? not so much.
And I think one of the reasons I don't get like that about a lot of pairings is that most people aren't like that. (99.9999% of people have to make do with being acceptably happy, after all!) Most people could be happy with more than one possible partner. At least, at some point in their lives. Perhaps after they and Partner A have been together for 40 years, no, but if they'd never met Partner A, and hooked up with Person B instead, they'd have been just as happy.
*nods* Very true. Very, very true.
And then you get Dan and Casey. Buffy and Angel. (And Buffy and Angel are an interesting pair to look at, because they both canonically did have other relationships after Angel left Sunnydale (well, Angel sort of tried to, at least), and I still believe they're MFEO and MTB and so on and so forth.) Pairings where anyone else would be a substitute. Someone for companionship and sex, maybe, but not right for them.
Yes, exactly. It's not that they'd be utterly miserable for the rest of time, just that they wouldn't have that deepdown connection with others.
As I said, or tried to, this isn't quite the same as my pairing issues, but it ties in. Characterization is the thing - but sometimes there's something in mynon that *is* pairing-related. (My Wesley is in love with Angel, even if he's also capable of loving other people. It's just true-for-me. It may not be true-for-you, or for anyone else, but it's true-for-me.)
Hmmm... *thinks* Not true-for-me. My Wes had a certain hero-worship for Angel during the early seasons, possibly not love, but certainly a deep-down adoration for Angel and all that he stood for. However, my Wes? Got pretty damn disillusioned during S2 and lost some of the unthinking devotion to Angel.
But still, I have *my* Wesley (or whoever), and then there's a spectrum of acceptable Wesleys, and then there's the fic Wesleys I will not touch because they're too far from what I can believe. But there are other people with a much narrower spectrum of "acceptable" characterizations.
*nods* Great way of putting it.
And I really wish I knew why I have so much to say about this topic, and I also really wish I could have written all these words on a story instead. *g*
Heh. I choose to see it as paving the way for a story. You're sitting down and thinking about pairings and characters and stuff, and eventually, Bing! A story idea will hit you.
Re: I am so very rambly tonight....
Date: 2004-07-22 02:51 am (UTC)Oh yeah. And in fact, I'm still rather OTP-ish about them, despite the whole kick in the head. (And despite liking S3.)
*nods* Yes, that's probably it. My hetships are almost always canon, or at least hinted as a possibility by canon. The slash pairings? not so much.
And I'm realizing that's honestly the case with me and my hetships that I've written. I wrote one, long ago, that was only subtext in canon. I wrote Doyle/Cordelia because (okay, because of the ficathon, but I signed up for the ficathon because) we never got *enough* in canon.
But Buffy/Angel, in general, I got enough of. I needed one good fixit story - one "and this is how they lived together in acceptable but imperfect happiness, forever and ever, amen." I've read that now, so I don't need to write fic.
Yes, exactly. It's not that they'd be utterly miserable for the rest of time, just that they wouldn't have that deepdown connection with others.
Oh, yeah. They can be happy enough, but there's just not that overwhelming rightness.
However, my Wes? Got pretty damn disillusioned during S2 and lost some of the unthinking devotion to Angel.
Mine lost the unthinking devotion. He just can't shake the want. My Wes is a screwed-up mess, but then again, look at canon. *g*
and eventually, Bing! A story idea will hit you.
I have the ideas. And the ficathon assignments, for that matter. *g*
Re: I am so very rambly tonight....
Date: 2004-07-21 01:08 pm (UTC)Just ducking into this thread to say, you're probably talking about "Echoes." (http://www.wishuwerehere.net/snc/echoes.html) =)
Re: I am so very rambly tonight....
Date: 2004-07-21 01:22 pm (UTC)And, yes, I was talking about Echoes. It's got a good Josh and a good Danny. The Casey characterisation is a little harsh, but Casey *can* be a Grade A Jerk without acknowledging it, so I can accept that. It's the impersonal nature of Sam that bugs me.
And... I *know* that he just got up the morning after with Laurie very easily (and then happily tried to be her friend), but he also spent a lot of time dithering over whether or not Leo's daughter, Malory, liked him. (And, on another thought, Malory! Yeardley Smith plays the "vaguely gay" legal advisor, Malory Moss. Heh.)
I just don't buy that Sam would get involved with Josh and then just step back.
*sigh* I know, it's a minor bitch, but it bugs me every time. I guess I could have accepted the story either if it just presented Sam as straight and oblivious, and Josh as attracted to him (or having an old crush on him), and then being surprised by his attraction to Danny.
Re: I am so very rambly tonight....
Date: 2004-07-22 08:54 pm (UTC)You're making a good point about Sam, and it's certainly understandable to feel distanced from a story because the character doesn't fit with how you see him (or her) in canon. I think I've even felt sometimes the way you do about Sam as well as about Casey in "Echoes." But I love it anyway for how well the Dan/Josh relationship is done and how well-written the fic is in terms of style, description, dialogue, etc. For me the minor niggling of Sam's characterization is never quite enough of a break from my admittedly somewhat flexible view of him to pull me out of the story. Still, though, like I said, I get why it would have that effect on you.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-21 09:31 am (UTC)I totally have the same kind of split in my head between what is possible, and what I believe of the characters.
To use SportsNight, I think it's possible Dan and Casey are lovers, but I don't necessarily *believe* it for more than the length of a good story. *My* Casey is straight and hung up on Dana until she screws that up, while *my* Dan is hung up on Casey and is completely confused because he knows Casey doesn't reciprocate.
But I still can and do read and enjoy Dan/Casey fic.
Otoh, I can believe and find possible *both* Josh/Sam, and Josh/Donna. In fact, I see the Josh/Donna relationship as a successor to earlier Josh/Sam, and see canon Josh and Sam as two people who tried and failed to make something more than friendship work, while I completely believe Josh and Donna are/were in love with each other, even if the timing of it was off (i.e., she got over it while he was falling into it). But I'd consider myself OTP about Josh/Donna, because if I have the choice in reading, that's what I'll choose every time.
The thing is, with HP especially, where there's so much we don't know and so much we're being told we'll learn (and yet I've no doubt there will still be huge gaps in our knowledge once the series is done), that yes, I *do* have a "this is how it happened" scenario in my head that I tend to use as a basis for my characterization and discussions of canon etc.
But I am able, willing and happy to write fic in which any number of scenarios of "how it happened" and they can all be contradictory, but if I'm really invested in the story as I'm writing, I can believe them all.
I mean, I can write a fic and say, "Sirius and Remus didn't get together until after Azkaban" and *believe* it happened that way. Or I can write one where they got together at school, and believe it's true to the characters. Even though both of those contradict my 'how it happened' theory that I'd use in discussions not-fic-related.
Hmmm...
Maybe I'm just a big ball of cognitive dissonance and I don't know it.
Anyhow, interesting post.
no subject
Date: 2004-07-21 01:51 pm (UTC)*My* Casey is straight and hung up on Dana until she screws that up, while *my* Dan is hung up on Casey and is completely confused because he knows Casey doesn't reciprocate.
Huh. I mean, it's a valid interpretation, and I'm the same, but opposite. In that I can *only* believe Dana/Casey for the length of the fic, and even then I have trouble turning off the little voice in my head that cries, "No, no! Doom!"
But, I can still occasionally read it and get sucked in. (Scrunchy's 12 Phrases that weren't Quo Vadimus is a great example. I *loved* the Dana/Casey bit almost more than the Dan/Casey section, but in my heart of hearts, I think Dana/Casey would be a romantic disaster.)
Otoh, I can believe and find possible *both* Josh/Sam, and Josh/Donna. In fact, I see the Josh/Donna relationship as a successor to earlier Josh/Sam, and see canon Josh and Sam as two people who tried and failed to make something more than friendship work...
*nods* Oh, I completely agree with that. My Sam/Josh OTP is doomed. On the other hand, I'm more of a Sam gal, and I see the Sam/Will as the successor to Josh/Sam. Josh/Donna... I can agree with, I can understand, I can write. But it's a very fine line on how much I believe. Generally I believe it for the length of the fic, because I can't shake the feeling that Josh just wouldn't be comfortable seeing someone who knew his weaknesses so well. (On the other hand, I haven't seen the latest season, so it's entirely possible that the Sam-less seasons leads to a little more than work-place flirting for Josh and Donna. I owuldn't know.)
But I am able, willing and happy to write fic in which any number of scenarios of "how it happened" and they can all be contradictory, but if I'm really invested in the story as I'm writing, I can believe them all. .... Even though both of those contradict my 'how it happened' theory that I'd use in discussions not-fic-related.
See, that's something I'm intrigued with, because I started out that way in SN. Like 6 months ago, I was writing fic with a lot of different characterisations, and I could *believe* them. I could believe "That Guy", where Casey's straight with a touch of really bad judgement when drunk (and a strong streak of jerkitude). I could believe Dan/Casey, too.
As I've written, it's only in hindsight that I'm starting to feel some are real and some aren't. On the other hand, I wonder how much this has to do with my Homophobic WIP. I mean, it's a *long* Casey/Dan fic and I've been writing it for months, so maybe that's why I'm getting a definite mynon at the moment. Maybe it's not a set mynon, but it's the mynon I need to believe to make this wip work...
*mulls*
no subject
Date: 2004-07-28 08:27 am (UTC)Hee!
in my heart of hearts, I think Dana/Casey would be a romantic disaster.)
Oh, it totally would be, though I think part of that is also simply a result of how Sorkin forced Dana's insanity with the Dating Plan.
can't shake the feeling that Josh just wouldn't be comfortable seeing someone who knew his weaknesses so well.
And see, I think Donna serves the same kind of role in Josh's life as Sam does/did, but is both more willing to fall in with Josh and also more willing to force him to compromise outright, rather than doing Sam's avoidance thing.
I was writing fic with a lot of different characterisations, and I could *believe* them. [...]
On the other hand, I wonder how much this has to do with my Homophobic WIP. I mean, it's a *long* Casey/Dan fic and I've been writing it for months, so maybe that's why I'm getting a definite mynon at the moment.
Well, I think a lot of it's situational - here are the basics of Character X, how will s/he act in Situation 1? In Situation 2? Okay, take away variable B and add in variable D and stir gently (or mix well *g*).
So what works in one story characterization-wise may not work in another, and yet both can feel true to the character in that situation.
The question then, I guess, is whether the situation feels true.
To skip to HP, but what you said triggered it in my head - most of us writing Sirius/Remus in the 1970s do so with the understanding that being gay was even more difficult then, and that James et al. would probably not have been quite as accepting as we write him. Yet he accepted the lycanthropy, which can be a metaphor for being gay. So. On the one hand, those stories don't necessarily feel wrong, but it's also possible to write - as I am now - a story where James is all, "ooh, filthy shirtlifters, ick! We showered with them" and so Sirius breaks it off with Remus because well, he's always seeking James's approval. And the thing is, I don't think of it as writing James as virulently homophobic so much as writing James as a 17yo boy who reflects the attitudes of his times and, if given time and space, who'd probably come around to being okay about it. So it feels okay to me. You know?
And then there are the stories that are utterly hurtful and I don't want to write, but can see could be true, if canon were three shades darker, or if I take off my romance-colored glasses, etc.
Does that make sense? People keep having meetings in the hallway right next to my cubicle, so I can't hear myself think...
no subject
Date: 2004-07-21 12:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-07-21 01:31 pm (UTC)*nods* The replies really are.
However, I really wanted to say that I *love* "A Poor Substitute." Absolutely love it. Gives me lots to think about in terms of my Lisa, my Casey, and my Dana. :)
*beams* Thank you. Personally, as I said, I like that fic because I really believe in it. I think it explains why everyone (especially Nat) would think that Casey/Dana was a potential couple, even though it's just an appearance. I think it also gives a good insight into Dana's head, the way that she intellectually *knows* Casey isn't the right guy for her, and yet, over the series she gets convinced by Casey and everyone around her that she should be dating him.
That's also my Lisa. Strawberry blond and charming and polite, and basically old-fashioned in the way that Casey's old-fashioned. She believes in marriage, and stuck by him even as he focused on everyone but her, even as he made huge, life-changing decisions without consulting her. And eventually, realised it was too much. I think both Lisa and Casey would have been unhappy in that marriage, and I think Dan only blames her because he's Casey's friend (he's biased as hell, which is what you almost expect from your best friend).