Identifying with female characters

[out_there]

musesfool was talking about that old argument of "I never identified with the female characters because they sucked when I was growing up". It's an interesting post with a lot of interesting comments, but something that caught my attention was viola_dreamwalk saying:

Where it gets weird for me is when a) the standards are different for male versus female characters; for example, a "weak" or passive male character is viewed as positive/sensitive/"a woobie"/etc., but his female equivalent "sucks" or b) we reject traits that are traditionally read as feminine because they're considered lame or useless.

Huh. I'm totally wondering about that. SN is a fandom that has strong female characters and woobie guys, and I'm wondering. Am I really that biased when it comes to woobies? All of fandom adores woobie-Dan, and woobie-Casey when he shows up, but do we hold it against the women? I don't know.

Mind you, when it comes to identifying with characters, I tend to ideantify most with Casey. Arrogant, self-involved, somewhat oblivious to others, emotionally blinkered (he has a truly stunning lack of ability to recognise his own emotions and motivations for what they are), demanding, nowhere near cool. Sincere, caring, loyal, sweet, clever (but only in regards to certain topics), basically conservative but doesn't follow social expectations blindly. Most of those things occur in my personality, to an extent.

There are times when I identify with Dan -- but that's generally restricted to when I'm writing a Danny POV. I don't identify with Natalie or Jeremy; or Isaac, Kim or any of the rest of the tertiary characters.

When it comes to Dana, I love her dearly. She is a strong female character, intelligent, sassy, well rounded with understandable flaws. I come to her defense and when she gets hurt I have a strong urge to bitchslap Casey/Gordon/Sam. If I had the opportunity to date/sleep with one SN character, it would be Dana. I think she's fascinating and endearing and adorable but I don't identify with her.

I just... don't.

And this is something that links to other thoughts. Like that I love this t-shirt but I *know* that I'd never buy it, let alone wear it in public. Like the fact that I keep thinking of myself as bi, but I barely ever leer at guys; I check out girls. Like the fact that terming myself a lesbian feels weird and untrue, but every time I imagine dating someone, that someone's always female.

Oddly enough, I don't feel that weird about calling myself a baby dyke which is just strange, but all about mental association, I guess. And, heh, isn't this icon so damn *appropriate* for this post? *snerk*

Comments

[charliequinn.livejournal.com]

I actually found your post an interesting read as well :)

As for identifying with female characters, I always identified with Scully. She was a big influence on me as a young un' :)

I totally have to tie you up and force feed you X-Files :)

[out-there.livejournal.com]

As for identifying with female characters, I always identified with Scully. She was a big influence on me as a young un' :)

Hmmm. First female characters I can remember identifying with is Brittany (Chipettes) and Matilda from Roald Dahl's book. It's not that I don't identify with them, per se, so much as... *shrugs* I don't know.

I think there's more female characters out there that I adore/love/lust after than actually identify with. Take BtVS. Cordy, Faith, Tara (and sometimes Dawn) fit in that first category. I'm fond of both Buffy and Willow, but I don't really see myself in either of them.

I totally have to tie you up and force feed you X-Files :)

*waggles eyebrows* Well, I'm not averse to the tying up part of that.

I was banned from XF when it was on TV -- on the grounds that it was junk television. Plus, it did scare me (all three episodes I ever watched of it).

But, hmmmm. Now I'm a little older (and hopefully a little more mature) I should probably give it another shot. That many fans can't be too wrong. *g*

[phoebesmum.livejournal.com]

You know, I don't think I do identify with screen characters. Fancy them, yes; identify with them, not so much. Except when I'm writing fiction and they take me over, and that's just me being weird.

As for the rest of it, I suppose everyone has slightly double standards. Fandom's are just a little different from other people's.

Maybe we want our idealised women to be a little more than Barbie dolls (hence, a little more 'masculine'), and our idealised men to be a few steps up from men-as-we-know-them (more 'feminine'). Which brings me back to what I've always said: everyone should just be gay and have done with it.

Never mind about reproduction, that's what turkey basters are for.

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Maybe we want our idealised women to be a little more than Barbie dolls (hence, a little more 'masculine'), and our idealised men to be a few steps up from men-as-we-know-them (more 'feminine'). Which brings me back to what I've always said: everyone should just be gay and have done with it.

I think you're probably right. We want the best possible people, and when we get it, we then complain that the characters aren't believable! We're a hard bunch to please, I'll give you that.

Never mind about reproduction, that's what turkey basters are for.

*cracks up*

[in-the-bottle.livejournal.com]

You know, I don't think I do identify with screen characters. Fancy them, yes; identify with them, not so much. Except when I'm writing fiction and they take me over, and that's just me being weird.

Not at all, I feel the same way! Well, there are bits like 'God! I'm messy like that too!' but that's as far as I go with identifying with characters. Is this weird? I have no idea.

[phoebesmum.livejournal.com]

For me, it's hard to identify with people on TV, as they're automatically better-looking than I am, smarter, have better jobs, better love lives, clever people writing their lines for them ...

(One of my big whinges is that people on TV always have fabulous jobs. Teri Hatcher's single mother in Desprit Housewives? Children's book illustrator! Of course she is! Never mind that all the single mothers I know are doing piecework at home, or working part-time as classroom assistants, receptionists, typists ...)

I don't think it's my TV viewing habits that make me weird, I think it's my DNA.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting thought, definitely. All I could think, though, is that I'm *not* an old-school fan. Strong Female Characters are all over the shop, you know?

It's just that the 'Strong Female Characters' we've tended to get in our fannish fandoms are precisely the kinds of characters who put my back up.

Or... I never identified with Buffy until S6. Faith was my woobie from word go... because she was always a *woobie*. (In her violent way). Hmmm...

[out-there.livejournal.com]

All I could think, though, is that I'm *not* an old-school fan. Strong Female Characters are all over the shop, you know?

*nods* Yeah, I know what you mean. I've grown up in a post-feminist world, where regardless of the sexism thats still around, there is a generally accepted notion that women are as good/strong/capable as men in a wider range of situations.

None the less, I was intrigued that some of the female roles were *old* literary ones (Jo from Little Women was a common example). The role models are there, have been there for ages, it's just that they're far more common these days.

It's just that the 'Strong Female Characters' we've tended to get in our fannish fandoms are precisely the kinds of characters who put my back up.

Really? Any idea why?

Or... I never identified with Buffy until S6. Faith was my woobie from word go... because she was always a *woobie*. (In her violent way). Hmmm...

Definately a woobie. Every time I watch S3 I constantly find myself wondering why the heck she was stuck living in a dodgy motel for *months* (and who paid for it, but that's another thought). Faith was violent, with mega-issues, but... the way she cleaved to the Mayor really said a lot about her need to be accepted/protected and the way the Scoobies just didn't.

But, even with Faith, it's not a personal identification for me. I like the girl a lot -- especially in the 'would like to lick honey off her bare skin' way -- but I don't actually see myself in her. I see more of myself in Wesley.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

None the less, I was intrigued that some of the female roles were *old* literary ones (Jo from Little Women was a common example). The role models are there, have been there for ages, it's just that they're far more common these days.

*nods* Indeed, and more likely to show up in shows where there are lots of cool guys, *too*. Which is (one of the places) where it gets sticky -- what happens to a good fannish feminist who *still* identifies with the boys?

It's just that the 'Strong Female Characters' we've tended to get in our fannish fandoms are precisely the kinds of characters who put my back up.

Really? Any idea why?

Often, in my eyes, I've felt a bit manipulated. Like the emphasis was on the character being STRONG and also FEMALE as opposed to, you know, a person. (less in my fannish fandoms than on other shows I've watched, though -- sitcoms are NOTORIOUS for that) On the flipside you have characters like Buffy. There's nothing wrong with her in the early seasons dramatically, she was just completely alien to my experience when not actively unlikeable.

Characters like that... well. If I can't imagine sitting down to chat with a character, however uncomfortable/bizarre that convo might be, then I can't identify at all. And if I can't *identify*, I can't write.

I like the girl a lot -- especially in the 'would like to lick honey off her bare skin' way -- but I don't actually see myself in her. I see more of myself in Wesley.

*laughs* I understand this.

In the end, I often think that the question "why don't slashers write more stories about female characters?" has a lot of good, valid answers. But, I think it's important to consider the *male* characters we identify with, too. Who's a female Wesley? Who's a female Angel? Who's a female Xander? (easier to do, I think, but *still*)

We're a weird group of people, you know? Give us freaky female characters, and hell YES we'll play. And here's where I predictably point back to DC fandom. :D

[out-there.livejournal.com]

In the end, I often think that the question "why don't slashers write more stories about female characters?" has a lot of good, valid answers.

Sometimes I think a lot of it is distance, to an extent. There is something a little less revealing, a little less up-close-and-personal about writing males.

Or, at least there is when it comes to porn. I feel far more exposed writing femslash (which could be due to the fact that I just haven't written much of it. I probably felt just as uncertain about guy-porn when I first wrote/posted it). The physical reactions are a bit closer to home, I guess.

I think it also extends to the female characters in non-porny situations too. I don't want to say that "oh, I write guys because I don't identify/personally resonate with the characters emotions/experiences" but part of it is that... when I write female characters there's... attitudes that I'm not sure of. Things that come with the territory of being a woman in our western society, things that I don't examine too closely, but somehow...

It's not that they trip me up so much as I keep expecting them to trip me up. I'm not certain of *my* attitudes towards a lot of stuff, so I'm uncertain of my ability to write about a character who has these attitudes or different attitudes.

How strange is it to say that at the end of the road, I have a slight worry about being able to write a believable female character? I *am* female. I have experiences in common with these characters (at least the most basic of them *g*) and yet. I worry. I worry they won't feel real; I worry that I'll skim over the wrong issues -- that I'll draw attention to the stuff that shouldn't be showing up; I worry about how it will reflect on *me*.

(Not that I think I'll appear less real, but...

Hmmm...it's all connected to female distrust, I think. I'm used to the idea of women being bitchy and judgmental -- damned if you do, and damned if you don't, because you'll be insulted and criticised no matter what -- and even though *fandom* is one of the most openly and genuinely supportive female environments, deepdown I still have a certain distrust. A certain fear that I'll show something without meaning to, and it'll... I don't know. It's a non-sensical fear.

I mean, it's not like anyone's going to kick me out of the clubhouse for being a little different. Fandom's pretty much made up of the different, and there's a level of support that's wonderful.

...and man, I swear I had a point and now I've totally lost it.)

[thete1.livejournal.com]

How strange is it to say that at the end of the road, I have a slight worry about being able to write a believable female character? I *am* female. I have experiences in common with these characters (at least the most basic of them *g*) and yet. I worry. I worry they won't feel real; I worry that I'll skim over the wrong issues -- that I'll draw attention to the stuff that shouldn't be showing up; I worry about how it will reflect on *me*.

Not strange to *me*, at all. Because, well, I've had the "why not (more) f/f" discussion with a lot of people, and, again, there are a lot of answers, but... yeah. I identify HUGELY with the things you say. I don't, actually, have a strong context for being a woman in western society. I just have, well, *me*. And so identification becomes an even more important factor when writing female characters than it is with guys.

There's all sorts of context for the boys. We're SOAKING in it.

And yeah, when I think about it... well, you know, I've written a couple dozen f/f and m/f stories over the years. Pretty respectable, as these things go. It's just the relativity factor which trips me up in the eyes of the judging world... and the fact that I'm often conscious of that judgment whether or not it EXISTS.

When I write f/f, it's always a process of gearing myself UP for it. Starting with the fact that yes, actually, one of MY favorite f/f stories of all time was a blatantly shameless Buffy/Faith PWP with no redeeming value whatsoever and no great complexity. It was just hot, and reasonably in character, and HOT.

I hope, one day, I can STOP having to remind myself of this.

[out-there.livejournal.com]

I don't, actually, have a strong context for being a woman in western society. I just have, well, *me*.

Which is a really good point, I guess. And I'll bet you that a lot of slashers feel the same way, to some extent. Just because we are women doesn't mean that we *understand* the whole context for it. We have our experiences, and our friends experiences, and it never quite feels as if it matches up to what our experiences-as-women should be.

and the fact that I'm often conscious of that judgment whether or not it EXISTS.

*nods* And that's a big part of it too. Just because the judgment isn't actually there doesn't mean you stop guarding against it. It's a weird Catch22, really. You gaurd yourself against the judgement, so when it doesn't come, you believe in your guarding system, not in the idea that the judgements have stopped.

I hope, one day, I can STOP having to remind myself of this.

Fingers crossed, because really, more Te-porn is only a good thing. *g*

[thete1.livejournal.com]

*nod nod nod*

Really, really there. And the point is, of course, that we don't have to understand the whole of the boys' experience, and we're not writing biographies of real people, and we should all just relax. It'll take TIME, but... *laughs*

Meanwhile, I'm still stuck on the whole... "you know, the characters I've most identified with over the years were movieverse Kurt, Xander, toonverse Wally West, Faith, Gunn, and Tim Drake."

One of those things is not like the others, sure, but *that's* not the point. The point is that they're all really *different* from the sorts of characters we typically see in our fandoms. From the *female* characters.

And so... you know, maybe the fact that I have countless Xander, Wally, and Tim stories should be considered as a function of *more* than just their maleness.

[out-there.livejournal.com]

And the point is, of course, that we don't have to understand the whole of the boys' experience, and we're not writing biographies of real people, and we should all just relax. It'll take TIME, but... *laughs*

*snerk* Exactly. I'm not a thirty year old Jewish guy from Connecticut. I have absolutely no experience/knowledge of growing up in the Midwest or living in New York, and all of my knowledge of broadcast journalism has come from TV. But that doesn't fill me with doubts when writing Dan and Casey.

So, yeah. Just because we don't know Everything In The Universe about being women doesn't mean that it'll screw up the fic. Relax, try to write it, and it'll probably turn out fine.

One of those things is not like the others, sure, but *that's* not the point. The point is that they're all really *different* from the sorts of characters we typically see in our fandoms. From the *female* characters.

And so... you know, maybe the fact that I have countless Xander, Wally, and Tim stories should be considered as a function of *more* than just their maleness.

That's... that's a really good point, actually. Maybe the whole identifying with male characters isn't so much about the idea that we identify with them because they're male, as they happen to have these traits that we identify with that don't seem to appear in the female characters.

I *know* I identify with the more conservative males -- no, not just conservative, but downright *prissy*. Wesley Wyndham-Price, Casey McCall, Sam Seaborn. Hell, Simon Tan even fits in there, because as much as I adore Mal and Zoe -- and I do, like a very, very shallow fangirl who like Pretty People With Guns -- it's Simon that reminds me of me.

Simon and Wes, Casey and Sam... All four of those guys?

1. Are deeply conservative -- not in the right-wing politics way, but in the rules-of-polite-society way, in the belief that there's a high road, that there's expectations one should live up to, that there's a right way to do things.
2. Are basically optimistic about the world -- despite the set-backs and sarcasm, there is a belief that the right thing will happen, even though it frequently doesn't, and a certainty that things are fixable. Interestingly enough, two out of four ended up disillusioned and hurt, and I never would have seen that similarity between Sam and Wes before.
3. Are academically intelligent and fairly clueless when it comes to most aspects of real life, especially emotional relationships.
4. Are arrogant about their knowledge, capable of petty sarcasm, and pretty certain that what they do well, they do *damn* well.
5. Are not cool and are aware of it
6. Are capable of doing well under pressure -- Despite the mild-mannered appearance, all four of the boys can do some extraordinary feats when they're pushed to it. They will stand up for their friends, for what they believe is the right thing, and it's pretty impressive when they do so.

Huh. That's interesting. I mean, I'd always thought of it as I just have a weakness for the pretty geek boys (and they are all pretty, but then again, everyone in TV land is), but there's a lot of similarities.

(Whereas if I look at the females, I really identify with Illyria -- and the whole argument for Illyria being a "female character" is dodgy at best. It's a male in a female body. The other women, especially Donna, I love dearly, but they're very different from me.)

Mind you, right now, I'm trying to think if I know any female characters who match those traits. Murphy Brown springs to mind, but when I think of my actual *fandoms*, hmm... No. Willow was always shown as a geek, but there's a lack of conviction there, a lack of belief in right'n'wrong, a lack of belief in her own strengths. The female geeks always seem to end up perky and cute, which isn't a bad thing per se, but isn't the same character type.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

That's... that's a really good point, actually. Maybe the whole identifying with male characters isn't so much about the idea that we identify with them because they're male, as they happen to have these traits that we identify with that don't seem to appear in the female characters.

*nods* I know that's where *I'm* coming from. Cassandra Cain, Barbara Gordon, and Cissie King-Jones are both a *lot* like Tim, and both tend to show up in my fiction. Stephanie Brown is a *lot* like Xander, and she shows up. And it just goes on and on. I didn't really need more heroines. I just needed more freaky/woobie-to-me ones.

[burntcopper.livejournal.com]

Heh. Interesting. I never really identified with the male characters that much (okay, aside from Jack Knight, Tim Hunter, John Constantine and a few others) - I basically fell for Dinah, Kitty Pryde, Meggan, Cissie, Molly, Kit, Tulip, Death, Delirium, Cordy and Faith so damn hard it wasn't true, identifying with them off the bat. People I knew could pretty much guarantee who in a new tv show/comic I would love and hug and call George. Strong, practical, take-no-shite types for the most part. Interestingly, in Vertigo, which is where Molly (BoM), Kit (HB), and Tulip (Preacher) come from, girls are normally the take-no-shite types, constantly rolling their eyes or telling their men what utter prats they're being.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

*nod nod nod* Whereas I've never really thought deeply about the types I'll wind up attracted to/identifying with in terms of "yes, but what will Te WRITE," but... man. I think about Wally, Bobby Drake, and Xander... and then I think about Chloe, and the fact that when it came down to it, I wound up writing about *her*, too.

In the end, we have *types*. And I just... well. I've mentioned this a few times in variants of this discussion, but back in the day in SV fandom, when me, Bas, LaT, the Spike, Livia, and Sarah would get together and chat on a nightly basis, there were CONSTANT conversations which basically went like "um. We can't hate Lana. We CAN'T. There *has* to be something to like about her. Right...? Right....?!"

And it's funny, but it's also a matter of people like me, veterans of the misogyny-in-slash-fandom wars, feeling *envious* of people who could grok/like these female characters -- whoever they were, whatever fandom they showed up in -- because at least *they* didn't have to take this shit.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

what happens to a good fannish feminist who *still* identifies with the boys?

I don't think that's a problem. It's the dismissal of the women that bugs me. And by 'dismissal' I don't necessarily mean, "not writing about" so much as people saying, "oh there aren't any good female characters. They're all boring." Well, maybe you (generic) find them boring; lord knows, I find all the Slytherins (except Bellatrix and Snape) boring in HP canon, but the idea that "all the females are boring/undeveloped" is an excuse for not writing them, in a fandom where characters who don't even *speak* have archives and communities devoted to them is... odd, to me. Of course, so many things in HP fandom are odd to me. *g*

I totally identify with Xander, though in the early seasons I'd have said Willow as well. I identify with Weiss and Marshall more than with Sydney or (I wish) Irina, as much as I love Irina. I identify with Danny and Jeremy far more than anyone else on SportsNight, though I love Dana (and identified more with her after I got a job that drove me crazy but I loved) and Natalie.

Why some characters/relationships ping for writing purposes and others don't? I can't answer that. I know what relationship dynamics I tend to always come back to, and I have some clue as to why, but I can't tell you why I rarely wrote Xander/Willow, but I can't stop writing Sirius/Remus, but I don't think it has much to do with gender.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

It's the dismissal of the women that bugs me. And by 'dismissal' I don't necessarily mean, "not writing about" so much as people saying, "oh there aren't any good female characters. They're all boring." Well, maybe you (generic) find them boring; lord knows, I find all the Slytherins (except Bellatrix and Snape) boring in HP canon, but the idea that "all the females are boring/undeveloped" is an excuse for not writing them, in a fandom where characters who don't even *speak* have archives and communities devoted to them is... odd, to me.

*nods* My whole point was just to wonder how often we (generic we) were saying "no good female characters" when we *meant* "no female characters who pinged for me like these male characters who, come to think of it, are actually major freaks of nature, in terms of how often their traits show up in my fandoms in either male *or* female characters."

[mtgat]

Can you please please please (with sugar and Tim on top) come back to this idea in an essay sometime? I think you're on to something big, fannish-online-sociological-um-insert-other-terms-as-necessary.

Um. Thing.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

*laughs* I will try. :D

[thete1.livejournal.com]

Also, would you consider unlocking this one/opening the filter up a bit? I want to link people to this...

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm... *thinks*

Yeah, okay. I'm switching it to unlocked now.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

Yayy! Thanks hon. :D