Identifying with female characters

[out_there]

musesfool was talking about that old argument of "I never identified with the female characters because they sucked when I was growing up". It's an interesting post with a lot of interesting comments, but something that caught my attention was viola_dreamwalk saying:

Where it gets weird for me is when a) the standards are different for male versus female characters; for example, a "weak" or passive male character is viewed as positive/sensitive/"a woobie"/etc., but his female equivalent "sucks" or b) we reject traits that are traditionally read as feminine because they're considered lame or useless.

Huh. I'm totally wondering about that. SN is a fandom that has strong female characters and woobie guys, and I'm wondering. Am I really that biased when it comes to woobies? All of fandom adores woobie-Dan, and woobie-Casey when he shows up, but do we hold it against the women? I don't know.

Mind you, when it comes to identifying with characters, I tend to ideantify most with Casey. Arrogant, self-involved, somewhat oblivious to others, emotionally blinkered (he has a truly stunning lack of ability to recognise his own emotions and motivations for what they are), demanding, nowhere near cool. Sincere, caring, loyal, sweet, clever (but only in regards to certain topics), basically conservative but doesn't follow social expectations blindly. Most of those things occur in my personality, to an extent.

There are times when I identify with Dan -- but that's generally restricted to when I'm writing a Danny POV. I don't identify with Natalie or Jeremy; or Isaac, Kim or any of the rest of the tertiary characters.

When it comes to Dana, I love her dearly. She is a strong female character, intelligent, sassy, well rounded with understandable flaws. I come to her defense and when she gets hurt I have a strong urge to bitchslap Casey/Gordon/Sam. If I had the opportunity to date/sleep with one SN character, it would be Dana. I think she's fascinating and endearing and adorable but I don't identify with her.

I just... don't.

And this is something that links to other thoughts. Like that I love this t-shirt but I *know* that I'd never buy it, let alone wear it in public. Like the fact that I keep thinking of myself as bi, but I barely ever leer at guys; I check out girls. Like the fact that terming myself a lesbian feels weird and untrue, but every time I imagine dating someone, that someone's always female.

Oddly enough, I don't feel that weird about calling myself a baby dyke which is just strange, but all about mental association, I guess. And, heh, isn't this icon so damn *appropriate* for this post? *snerk*

Comments

[out-there.livejournal.com]

In the end, I often think that the question "why don't slashers write more stories about female characters?" has a lot of good, valid answers.

Sometimes I think a lot of it is distance, to an extent. There is something a little less revealing, a little less up-close-and-personal about writing males.

Or, at least there is when it comes to porn. I feel far more exposed writing femslash (which could be due to the fact that I just haven't written much of it. I probably felt just as uncertain about guy-porn when I first wrote/posted it). The physical reactions are a bit closer to home, I guess.

I think it also extends to the female characters in non-porny situations too. I don't want to say that "oh, I write guys because I don't identify/personally resonate with the characters emotions/experiences" but part of it is that... when I write female characters there's... attitudes that I'm not sure of. Things that come with the territory of being a woman in our western society, things that I don't examine too closely, but somehow...

It's not that they trip me up so much as I keep expecting them to trip me up. I'm not certain of *my* attitudes towards a lot of stuff, so I'm uncertain of my ability to write about a character who has these attitudes or different attitudes.

How strange is it to say that at the end of the road, I have a slight worry about being able to write a believable female character? I *am* female. I have experiences in common with these characters (at least the most basic of them *g*) and yet. I worry. I worry they won't feel real; I worry that I'll skim over the wrong issues -- that I'll draw attention to the stuff that shouldn't be showing up; I worry about how it will reflect on *me*.

(Not that I think I'll appear less real, but...

Hmmm...it's all connected to female distrust, I think. I'm used to the idea of women being bitchy and judgmental -- damned if you do, and damned if you don't, because you'll be insulted and criticised no matter what -- and even though *fandom* is one of the most openly and genuinely supportive female environments, deepdown I still have a certain distrust. A certain fear that I'll show something without meaning to, and it'll... I don't know. It's a non-sensical fear.

I mean, it's not like anyone's going to kick me out of the clubhouse for being a little different. Fandom's pretty much made up of the different, and there's a level of support that's wonderful.

...and man, I swear I had a point and now I've totally lost it.)

[thete1.livejournal.com]

How strange is it to say that at the end of the road, I have a slight worry about being able to write a believable female character? I *am* female. I have experiences in common with these characters (at least the most basic of them *g*) and yet. I worry. I worry they won't feel real; I worry that I'll skim over the wrong issues -- that I'll draw attention to the stuff that shouldn't be showing up; I worry about how it will reflect on *me*.

Not strange to *me*, at all. Because, well, I've had the "why not (more) f/f" discussion with a lot of people, and, again, there are a lot of answers, but... yeah. I identify HUGELY with the things you say. I don't, actually, have a strong context for being a woman in western society. I just have, well, *me*. And so identification becomes an even more important factor when writing female characters than it is with guys.

There's all sorts of context for the boys. We're SOAKING in it.

And yeah, when I think about it... well, you know, I've written a couple dozen f/f and m/f stories over the years. Pretty respectable, as these things go. It's just the relativity factor which trips me up in the eyes of the judging world... and the fact that I'm often conscious of that judgment whether or not it EXISTS.

When I write f/f, it's always a process of gearing myself UP for it. Starting with the fact that yes, actually, one of MY favorite f/f stories of all time was a blatantly shameless Buffy/Faith PWP with no redeeming value whatsoever and no great complexity. It was just hot, and reasonably in character, and HOT.

I hope, one day, I can STOP having to remind myself of this.

[out-there.livejournal.com]

I don't, actually, have a strong context for being a woman in western society. I just have, well, *me*.

Which is a really good point, I guess. And I'll bet you that a lot of slashers feel the same way, to some extent. Just because we are women doesn't mean that we *understand* the whole context for it. We have our experiences, and our friends experiences, and it never quite feels as if it matches up to what our experiences-as-women should be.

and the fact that I'm often conscious of that judgment whether or not it EXISTS.

*nods* And that's a big part of it too. Just because the judgment isn't actually there doesn't mean you stop guarding against it. It's a weird Catch22, really. You gaurd yourself against the judgement, so when it doesn't come, you believe in your guarding system, not in the idea that the judgements have stopped.

I hope, one day, I can STOP having to remind myself of this.

Fingers crossed, because really, more Te-porn is only a good thing. *g*

[thete1.livejournal.com]

*nod nod nod*

Really, really there. And the point is, of course, that we don't have to understand the whole of the boys' experience, and we're not writing biographies of real people, and we should all just relax. It'll take TIME, but... *laughs*

Meanwhile, I'm still stuck on the whole... "you know, the characters I've most identified with over the years were movieverse Kurt, Xander, toonverse Wally West, Faith, Gunn, and Tim Drake."

One of those things is not like the others, sure, but *that's* not the point. The point is that they're all really *different* from the sorts of characters we typically see in our fandoms. From the *female* characters.

And so... you know, maybe the fact that I have countless Xander, Wally, and Tim stories should be considered as a function of *more* than just their maleness.

[out-there.livejournal.com]

And the point is, of course, that we don't have to understand the whole of the boys' experience, and we're not writing biographies of real people, and we should all just relax. It'll take TIME, but... *laughs*

*snerk* Exactly. I'm not a thirty year old Jewish guy from Connecticut. I have absolutely no experience/knowledge of growing up in the Midwest or living in New York, and all of my knowledge of broadcast journalism has come from TV. But that doesn't fill me with doubts when writing Dan and Casey.

So, yeah. Just because we don't know Everything In The Universe about being women doesn't mean that it'll screw up the fic. Relax, try to write it, and it'll probably turn out fine.

One of those things is not like the others, sure, but *that's* not the point. The point is that they're all really *different* from the sorts of characters we typically see in our fandoms. From the *female* characters.

And so... you know, maybe the fact that I have countless Xander, Wally, and Tim stories should be considered as a function of *more* than just their maleness.

That's... that's a really good point, actually. Maybe the whole identifying with male characters isn't so much about the idea that we identify with them because they're male, as they happen to have these traits that we identify with that don't seem to appear in the female characters.

I *know* I identify with the more conservative males -- no, not just conservative, but downright *prissy*. Wesley Wyndham-Price, Casey McCall, Sam Seaborn. Hell, Simon Tan even fits in there, because as much as I adore Mal and Zoe -- and I do, like a very, very shallow fangirl who like Pretty People With Guns -- it's Simon that reminds me of me.

Simon and Wes, Casey and Sam... All four of those guys?

1. Are deeply conservative -- not in the right-wing politics way, but in the rules-of-polite-society way, in the belief that there's a high road, that there's expectations one should live up to, that there's a right way to do things.
2. Are basically optimistic about the world -- despite the set-backs and sarcasm, there is a belief that the right thing will happen, even though it frequently doesn't, and a certainty that things are fixable. Interestingly enough, two out of four ended up disillusioned and hurt, and I never would have seen that similarity between Sam and Wes before.
3. Are academically intelligent and fairly clueless when it comes to most aspects of real life, especially emotional relationships.
4. Are arrogant about their knowledge, capable of petty sarcasm, and pretty certain that what they do well, they do *damn* well.
5. Are not cool and are aware of it
6. Are capable of doing well under pressure -- Despite the mild-mannered appearance, all four of the boys can do some extraordinary feats when they're pushed to it. They will stand up for their friends, for what they believe is the right thing, and it's pretty impressive when they do so.

Huh. That's interesting. I mean, I'd always thought of it as I just have a weakness for the pretty geek boys (and they are all pretty, but then again, everyone in TV land is), but there's a lot of similarities.

(Whereas if I look at the females, I really identify with Illyria -- and the whole argument for Illyria being a "female character" is dodgy at best. It's a male in a female body. The other women, especially Donna, I love dearly, but they're very different from me.)

Mind you, right now, I'm trying to think if I know any female characters who match those traits. Murphy Brown springs to mind, but when I think of my actual *fandoms*, hmm... No. Willow was always shown as a geek, but there's a lack of conviction there, a lack of belief in right'n'wrong, a lack of belief in her own strengths. The female geeks always seem to end up perky and cute, which isn't a bad thing per se, but isn't the same character type.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

That's... that's a really good point, actually. Maybe the whole identifying with male characters isn't so much about the idea that we identify with them because they're male, as they happen to have these traits that we identify with that don't seem to appear in the female characters.

*nods* I know that's where *I'm* coming from. Cassandra Cain, Barbara Gordon, and Cissie King-Jones are both a *lot* like Tim, and both tend to show up in my fiction. Stephanie Brown is a *lot* like Xander, and she shows up. And it just goes on and on. I didn't really need more heroines. I just needed more freaky/woobie-to-me ones.

[burntcopper.livejournal.com]

Heh. Interesting. I never really identified with the male characters that much (okay, aside from Jack Knight, Tim Hunter, John Constantine and a few others) - I basically fell for Dinah, Kitty Pryde, Meggan, Cissie, Molly, Kit, Tulip, Death, Delirium, Cordy and Faith so damn hard it wasn't true, identifying with them off the bat. People I knew could pretty much guarantee who in a new tv show/comic I would love and hug and call George. Strong, practical, take-no-shite types for the most part. Interestingly, in Vertigo, which is where Molly (BoM), Kit (HB), and Tulip (Preacher) come from, girls are normally the take-no-shite types, constantly rolling their eyes or telling their men what utter prats they're being.

[thete1.livejournal.com]

*nod nod nod* Whereas I've never really thought deeply about the types I'll wind up attracted to/identifying with in terms of "yes, but what will Te WRITE," but... man. I think about Wally, Bobby Drake, and Xander... and then I think about Chloe, and the fact that when it came down to it, I wound up writing about *her*, too.

In the end, we have *types*. And I just... well. I've mentioned this a few times in variants of this discussion, but back in the day in SV fandom, when me, Bas, LaT, the Spike, Livia, and Sarah would get together and chat on a nightly basis, there were CONSTANT conversations which basically went like "um. We can't hate Lana. We CAN'T. There *has* to be something to like about her. Right...? Right....?!"

And it's funny, but it's also a matter of people like me, veterans of the misogyny-in-slash-fandom wars, feeling *envious* of people who could grok/like these female characters -- whoever they were, whatever fandom they showed up in -- because at least *they* didn't have to take this shit.