TW: Waffle about Jack and Ianto...

[out_there]

I started replying to godofwine (and my last ramble) but it was too long for a comment. If I'm waffling at that length about characters and motivation, I should probably go ahead and post it in my own damn journal.

First thought was about Jack in DW vs Jack in TW, about the different interpretations of Jack a fan would get depending on which show they saw first. Because I saw DW first, I think I'll always think of Jack as someone capable of conning those around him, someone capable of... not always connecting with those around him. It's not that he's not a decent guy, it's not that he doesn't want to be a hero (he does), but... I get the impression that until meeting the Doctor, he would have happily travelled through time and not worried about disasters around him.

*thinks*

It's hard for me to explain, but lets put it this way. He was a con who like using volcano explosion and wars to clean up the con after him. He was someone who could live in the middle of people around him losing their lives without taking it on personally, without it really affecting him when he moved to the next time. The Doctor made him connect, showed him how much he could personally be responsible for and how much he could change (how much he could save the world).

Jack in late DW is happier (as happy as I'm expecting Jack in late S2 TW to be, actually). Jack in S1 TW is... the characterisation has shifted because the character has changed. He's more serious about saving the world, less flippant and also less... connected to people around him. He connects to Gwen (but I strongly suspect that Gwen's similarities to Rose are purely intentional and part of the reason she catches Jack's interest) and from that, I understand Gwen's need/belief that she's *special* to Jack.

(She is, in that he connects with her and starts caring/taking more responsibility for his team. But I don't think that means what she's accustomed to it meaning: ie. it's not a romantic relationship, it's not a promise of forever, it's not even a serious-let's-settle-down like with Rhys. It's a connection, it's important, but I think Gwen thinks of it in very different terms to Jack.)

And I've managed to completely waffle around my own point. My thoughts were that, yes, godofwine was right about the writers and the characterisation (I'm sure it's being kept purposely vague to give them more wriggle room) so it's hard to ascribe any set motivation/beliefs to each character.

My other thought was that... I'm not entirely convinced that Jack manipulates those around him *intentionally*. I don't think it's something he really does on purpose, I don't think it's a conscious decision to use charm/good looks/personality in a particular way to get the reaction he wants. Just as I'm not entirely sure that he's aware of when he flirts with people -- he does it, other people are aware that he does it, but I don't think Jack's actually given to introspection to the degree of *realising* that he does it.

It's this big nebulous cloud inside my head. But the basics are that I think Jack is highly manipulative to get what he wants but at the same time, I don't think he's consciously doing it. He's not strictly doing it on purpose, so I don't blame him for it, I just think it's there. (I know this is very much a YMMV but it's one of those things I *believe* in that also works to explain any slightly dodgy characterisation choices. So it works for me.)

I think Jack (in Season One) sees that Ianto is deeply hurting and wants very much to help him and understand him and comfort him. I think they're both lonely and I think Jack wants to make things better for Ianto.

*nods* I'd agree with that, but I'd also point out that I think in Ianto Jack has recognised an equal when it comes to manipulating others' expectations. Ianto kept a *big* secret for a long time and Jack had no idea. (Really, when you stop and think about it, it's amazing that no one else knew -- I suspect Suzie knew but didn't care, but that's just my guess -- and that no one even suspected Ianto. Their first reaction was that Ianto must be in danger; no one stopped and even considered any different.)

Much like Jack's infatuation for the Doctor seems to be based on finding someone his equal (or better, in the Doctor's case since he was wiser and braver and brought out the courageous side of Jack), I think a good part of his attachment to Ianto comes from simple intrigue. I think Ianto is the one team member that Jack can't read easily -- the one that can consciously, intentionally deceive him -- is the reason Jack's interested (well, interested in Ianto for reasons other than the physical).

And, hmmm, it's a Monday and I'm possibly repeating myself (for no good reason, other than to give me an excuse to think about Jack and Ianto and hope that 2.04 is waiting in my letterbox at home), so thank you for indulging me.

Comments

[in-the-bottle.livejournal.com]

*brain goes explody*

and hope that 2.04 is waiting in my letterbox at home

It better be! I posted it on Friday!

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Got it. Saw it. Have posted random squee about it.

(will catch up on other people's posts at lunch, hopefully.)

[in-the-bottle.livejournal.com]

Saw said squee and mine's nowhere as in depth. As you know, brain shut down and all that.

Now am late for work.

*runs*

[godofwine.livejournal.com]

So I've gotten like a mass overload of information overflow since my post/reply from watching DW and also from finally watching the last three episodes of season 1 of TW and reading some GDL interviews. I swear, my opinions of the characters changes everyday, so I might have been overly firm before.

I think I originally came at the whole Gwen/Jack relationship from these very heterosexual shows where it was always about the Guy and Girl even when it was vague and never realised (I'm thinking of both Stargate series and, to some extent, Smallville or even House), so it seemed liked it was going to be another one of those "We have all these moments and hints that you're suppose to read as angst UST so don't expect any of their other relationships to ever mean anything". But I'm realizing that this is a stupid bias, and if I'm operating under this bias, then obviously my Gwen/Jack is going to be skewed more towards "Oh it's suppose to be deep and meaningful" and more cynical (for me).

I'm right with you about Gwen though. I think because the show is so much directed towards her that she comes off, however unfairly, as somewhat self-centered (not selfish though). I mean she makes a big deal about what she thinks is right, what she wants (I'm thinking about her demanding to Jack to bring Rhys back in End of Days). I mean, it's like Rhys is her special privilege and she's not going to be alone like the rest of Torchwood.

But I don't think Jack necessarily connects where her per se. I mean, I think yes she does strike sparks with him, but it's like they're two such different people that they never have that feeling of real sharing; they just trade stories. I'm comparing this to the whole "Don't you get lonely?" exchange between Jack and Ianto where you actively feel like the characters are connecting. It feels like Gwen, in so strongly saying she's not alone, she has someone, she feels for people, cannot empathsize with, can't understand Jack. I mean, there just doesn't seem to be that moment where you can see the other character thinking: ok, I get you, I understand, I feel the same way.

And I think without that, I see her as someone who makes Jack think but doesn't necessarily make him feel. It seems a lot of times her emotion just prompts him to reflect on what he's not feeling or what he can't have or whatever.

Re: manipulation: Right, I totally agree with the subconscious manipulation. I mean, once I stop thinking of him actively strategising about how to make people do what he wants, it's more apparent. Especially when people disagree with him, refuses, and the he becomes Angry!Jack and Authoritative!Jack and starts demanding they do what he says.

As for Ianto, it's interesting but I've never thought about him as manipulative before. (I mean, I never thought about that aspect of him, not that that's a characterization of him that I've always suppose to be false.) He certainly is good at presenting a certain image of himself as the Teaboy in Season One, fading in the background but yet so hand, and I think GDL recently said that prior to Cyberwoman, Ianto basically used Jack's attraction to him, albeit unhappily, to hide Lisa better.

Jack doesn't really flirts with other members of Torchwood like he flirts with Ianto, like right out "I'm making a pass at you" kind of flirting and Ianto cheekily flirts back, so right off the bat, there's the possibility of something more. I think definitely the Lisa incident sparks Jack's interest in Ianto in away that is beyond casual attraction. But I don't know if he's actively thinking of Ianto as an equal or a mystery. I mean, he's certainly shocked, but his response is to spend more time with Ianto, get closer with him (from the BBCAmerica website).

(cont'd below because I ran out of space.)

[godofwine.livejournal.com]

(cont'd)

I think I'm explaining this poorly, and this could be just a misunderstanding on my part. I don't think Jack is necessarily intrigued by Ianto per se but rather that he sees that there's something more there, something interesting he missed, and now he wants to get to know Ianto better. And I think because of the way they're both alone and they've both lost, and because Jack is making an active effort to form some "closer" connection with Ianto

I think ultimately, Ianto's the one he trusts the most because I think Ianto's probably become the most loyal. I mean, I believe it's canon that they spend the most time alone together after regular working hours (in the Hub at least), and I think that makes them better able to read each other. I mean, I agree that Jack can read the others very well, but I think Jack and Ianto have a mutual understanding of each other habits and idiosyncrasies that the others don't necessarily have, and I think you see that from the easy back and forth they have.

I don't know, I change my mind all the time, and it's like 4:30 am here so sorry if this makes no sense.

Ahh, this has been way too long again! Must stop rambling! :)

[out-there.livejournal.com]

Double-length comments: always a good sign. *g*

I mean, I believe it's canon that they spend the most time alone together after regular working hours (in the Hub at least), and I think that makes them better able to read each other. I mean, I agree that Jack can read the others very well, but I think Jack and Ianto have a mutual understanding of each other habits and idiosyncrasies that the others don't necessarily have, and I think you see that from the easy back and forth they have.

That is a really good point that I am thinkinga bout. I currently have nothing to say, other than, "hmmmm, you're right, they spend a lot of time together away from the others" and now I'm thinking about how I characterise them, about thinking about them like that -- would it make a difference to how I've written them in the past? Would it make a difference to the type of stories I'd write now? If the attraction is based on the idea that they're a mystery to each other, can that exist with the idea of having a understanding and similarities?

...Yeah. No formed thoughts, but having a lot of fun thinking.

[godofwine.livejournal.com]

It's funny because I first just thought the stopwatch scene came out of left field. Like how do you go from flirting to "You're a monster, I'm going to kill you"/"No, I'm going to kill you for betraying us" to "Hey, you want to see me 'stopwatch'? *wink*" But after reading the whole Captain's Blog, I thought it made more sense that if Jack is making a conscious effort to get closer to Ianto and taking him out to dinners and stuff, then yeah, they're probably a lot closer than just two people who work together.

But I would also say that being more closed-off people who aren't really that inclined to share that much about themselves, then I can see them understanding the surface of each other, the sort of reactions of each other, without perhaps knowing the full story.

Just a thought. Don't know if it makes.

(Thinking about Jack/Ianto is love! &hearts)