TW: Waffle about Jack and Ianto...
Feb. 11th, 2008 04:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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godofwine (and my last ramble) but it was too long for a comment. If I'm waffling at that length about characters and motivation, I should probably go ahead and post it in my own damn journal.
First thought was about Jack in DW vs Jack in TW, about the different interpretations of Jack a fan would get depending on which show they saw first. Because I saw DW first, I think I'll always think of Jack as someone capable of conning those around him, someone capable of... not always connecting with those around him. It's not that he's not a decent guy, it's not that he doesn't want to be a hero (he does), but... I get the impression that until meeting the Doctor, he would have happily travelled through time and not worried about disasters around him.
*thinks*
It's hard for me to explain, but lets put it this way. He was a con who like using volcano explosion and wars to clean up the con after him. He was someone who could live in the middle of people around him losing their lives without taking it on personally, without it really affecting him when he moved to the next time. The Doctor made him connect, showed him how much he could personally be responsible for and how much he could change (how much he could save the world).
Jack in late DW is happier (as happy as I'm expecting Jack in late S2 TW to be, actually). Jack in S1 TW is... the characterisation has shifted because the character has changed. He's more serious about saving the world, less flippant and also less... connected to people around him. He connects to Gwen (but I strongly suspect that Gwen's similarities to Rose are purely intentional and part of the reason she catches Jack's interest) and from that, I understand Gwen's need/belief that she's *special* to Jack.
(She is, in that he connects with her and starts caring/taking more responsibility for his team. But I don't think that means what she's accustomed to it meaning: ie. it's not a romantic relationship, it's not a promise of forever, it's not even a serious-let's-settle-down like with Rhys. It's a connection, it's important, but I think Gwen thinks of it in very different terms to Jack.)
And I've managed to completely waffle around my own point. My thoughts were that, yes,godofwine was right about the writers and the characterisation (I'm sure it's being kept purposely vague to give them more wriggle room) so it's hard to ascribe any set motivation/beliefs to each character.
My other thought was that... I'm not entirely convinced that Jack manipulates those around him *intentionally*. I don't think it's something he really does on purpose, I don't think it's a conscious decision to use charm/good looks/personality in a particular way to get the reaction he wants. Just as I'm not entirely sure that he's aware of when he flirts with people -- he does it, other people are aware that he does it, but I don't think Jack's actually given to introspection to the degree of *realising* that he does it.
It's this big nebulous cloud inside my head. But the basics are that I think Jack is highly manipulative to get what he wants but at the same time, I don't think he's consciously doing it. He's not strictly doing it on purpose, so I don't blame him for it, I just think it's there. (I know this is very much a YMMV but it's one of those things I *believe* in that also works to explain any slightly dodgy characterisation choices. So it works for me.)
I think Jack (in Season One) sees that Ianto is deeply hurting and wants very much to help him and understand him and comfort him. I think they're both lonely and I think Jack wants to make things better for Ianto.
*nods* I'd agree with that, but I'd also point out that I think in Ianto Jack has recognised an equal when it comes to manipulating others' expectations. Ianto kept a *big* secret for a long time and Jack had no idea. (Really, when you stop and think about it, it's amazing that no one else knew -- I suspect Suzie knew but didn't care, but that's just my guess -- and that no one even suspected Ianto. Their first reaction was that Ianto must be in danger; no one stopped and even considered any different.)
Much like Jack's infatuation for the Doctor seems to be based on finding someone his equal (or better, in the Doctor's case since he was wiser and braver and brought out the courageous side of Jack), I think a good part of his attachment to Ianto comes from simple intrigue. I think Ianto is the one team member that Jack can't read easily -- the one that can consciously, intentionally deceive him -- is the reason Jack's interested (well, interested in Ianto for reasons other than the physical).
And, hmmm, it's a Monday and I'm possibly repeating myself (for no good reason, other than to give me an excuse to think about Jack and Ianto and hope that 2.04 is waiting in my letterbox at home), so thank you for indulging me.
godofwine (and my last ramble) but it was too long for a comment. If I'm waffling at that length about characters and motivation, I should probably go ahead and post it in my own damn journal.First thought was about Jack in DW vs Jack in TW, about the different interpretations of Jack a fan would get depending on which show they saw first. Because I saw DW first, I think I'll always think of Jack as someone capable of conning those around him, someone capable of... not always connecting with those around him. It's not that he's not a decent guy, it's not that he doesn't want to be a hero (he does), but... I get the impression that until meeting the Doctor, he would have happily travelled through time and not worried about disasters around him.
*thinks*
It's hard for me to explain, but lets put it this way. He was a con who like using volcano explosion and wars to clean up the con after him. He was someone who could live in the middle of people around him losing their lives without taking it on personally, without it really affecting him when he moved to the next time. The Doctor made him connect, showed him how much he could personally be responsible for and how much he could change (how much he could save the world).
Jack in late DW is happier (as happy as I'm expecting Jack in late S2 TW to be, actually). Jack in S1 TW is... the characterisation has shifted because the character has changed. He's more serious about saving the world, less flippant and also less... connected to people around him. He connects to Gwen (but I strongly suspect that Gwen's similarities to Rose are purely intentional and part of the reason she catches Jack's interest) and from that, I understand Gwen's need/belief that she's *special* to Jack.
(She is, in that he connects with her and starts caring/taking more responsibility for his team. But I don't think that means what she's accustomed to it meaning: ie. it's not a romantic relationship, it's not a promise of forever, it's not even a serious-let's-settle-down like with Rhys. It's a connection, it's important, but I think Gwen thinks of it in very different terms to Jack.)
And I've managed to completely waffle around my own point. My thoughts were that, yes,
godofwine was right about the writers and the characterisation (I'm sure it's being kept purposely vague to give them more wriggle room) so it's hard to ascribe any set motivation/beliefs to each character.My other thought was that... I'm not entirely convinced that Jack manipulates those around him *intentionally*. I don't think it's something he really does on purpose, I don't think it's a conscious decision to use charm/good looks/personality in a particular way to get the reaction he wants. Just as I'm not entirely sure that he's aware of when he flirts with people -- he does it, other people are aware that he does it, but I don't think Jack's actually given to introspection to the degree of *realising* that he does it.
It's this big nebulous cloud inside my head. But the basics are that I think Jack is highly manipulative to get what he wants but at the same time, I don't think he's consciously doing it. He's not strictly doing it on purpose, so I don't blame him for it, I just think it's there. (I know this is very much a YMMV but it's one of those things I *believe* in that also works to explain any slightly dodgy characterisation choices. So it works for me.)
I think Jack (in Season One) sees that Ianto is deeply hurting and wants very much to help him and understand him and comfort him. I think they're both lonely and I think Jack wants to make things better for Ianto.
*nods* I'd agree with that, but I'd also point out that I think in Ianto Jack has recognised an equal when it comes to manipulating others' expectations. Ianto kept a *big* secret for a long time and Jack had no idea. (Really, when you stop and think about it, it's amazing that no one else knew -- I suspect Suzie knew but didn't care, but that's just my guess -- and that no one even suspected Ianto. Their first reaction was that Ianto must be in danger; no one stopped and even considered any different.)
Much like Jack's infatuation for the Doctor seems to be based on finding someone his equal (or better, in the Doctor's case since he was wiser and braver and brought out the courageous side of Jack), I think a good part of his attachment to Ianto comes from simple intrigue. I think Ianto is the one team member that Jack can't read easily -- the one that can consciously, intentionally deceive him -- is the reason Jack's interested (well, interested in Ianto for reasons other than the physical).
And, hmmm, it's a Monday and I'm possibly repeating myself (for no good reason, other than to give me an excuse to think about Jack and Ianto and hope that 2.04 is waiting in my letterbox at home), so thank you for indulging me.
